Sunday, February 14, 2010

Irish Republican Socialism - My Two Cents





The following in a comment I recently made on the blog The Pensive Quill on the post Dis/topia [sic]ness. It pretty much sums up where my head is at politically. In other words, in flux.

Antony,

This blog is very interesting lately. I am currently ploughing my way through 'The Lost Revolution' by Hanley and Millar. Very educational. I am currently at the stage of the Provo/Official split and it has given me an insight that I think is relevant to the comments on this thread.

Sinn Fein/IRA in the 1960s was the true inheritor of the republican tradition of Wolfe Tone, the Fenians and the IRB, and like them in the 1960s were seen by the majority of Irish Nationalists north and south as being somewhat eccentric, not necessarily bad, or even wrong, but dreamers who would be better off turning their attention to bread and butter issues. Except for rare moments of crisis, this is the way republicans always have been seen (and are seen now).

Anyway in the 1960s, the IRA either out of genuine idealism, or political opportunism starts to move to the left, which causes a lot of internal strife, just as this is coming to a boil the whole civil rights thing explodes. IRA membership mushrooms and the split occurs. Here's my point, the Provos were not only not Republican Socialists, the majority of them were not even Republicans. I've put the word majority in bold for good reason, yes a significant minority were republicans, who either did not buy into the socialism or who ended up on the Provo side because of personal or neighborhood loyalty. But the majority ended up in the provos because they wanted civil rights and to defend their homes and loved ones, not because they were committed republican revolutionaries. Now that they've got their civil rights, they are happy to return to being bourgeois nationalists.

I think Larry's FF in the South SF in the North is totally understandable. Both parties pose at being republican (waving tricolours, attending republican commemorations) while at the same time are quite willing to persecute and imprison (and in the case of FF, execute) former republican comrades. In a way SF are worse because they pretend to be socialists something FF tend to avoid doing (although there was Bertie Aherne's bizarre claim to being a socialist some years back).

As for the Officials/Worker's party, well they are a ghost party, bled white by splits and the fall of the Berlin Wall. I have read their newspaper and seen some blogs, I've even talked to ghostly voices down a telephone, but I've never seen or touched a WP member since the Democratic Left split.

Personally, and I expect to be shot down over this, at this stage of my journey though the weird and wonderful world of the Irish Left, I think the remnants of the old Republican Spirit, if they remain anywhere, are in the INLA/IRSP. That said the recent decommissioning is hard to fathom. But if they exist anywhere I hope they have learned that for a revolution to succeed you need the support of the mass of the people, plus a fair measure of the security forces of the state. Perhaps at some times in the 1970s and 1980s such a situation almost existed in Ireland. Maybe the troubles really were a lost opportunity, but I don't believe the majority of the provos were ever really revolutionary and now they are certainly no different from FF, FG and Labour in the south.

Rory

45 comments:

  1. I have tried to follow the history of Irish politics, the right as it is defined now and the left...
    Is there a socialist party in Ireland which has evolved beyond the definitions of the 70's?
    I found it very interesting that the NPA of Olivier Becensanot is finding a base in Scotland.
    Is Becensanot known in Ireland?
    His party, which is "anti-mondialist" is his new stance coming from his very Trotskyite League Communiste Revolutionaire (LCR) of the 90's.
    I am interested in knowing if his party exists in Ireland.

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  2. microdot,

    Perhaps most progressive (and successful) socialist party in Ireland is called The Socialist Party. They are a new party and currently have one MEP (their leader Joe Higgins) and several local councilors elected. They are regarded as Trotskyite.

    Then there is the People Before Profit Alliance, also a new faction. The driving force behind this group is the Socialist Worker's Party. An internationalist trotskyite party founded in Britain in the 1950s. They have several local councilors elected and hope to win a few seats in parliament in the next election. I recently left the SWP.

    Of the republican factions, the only one I have much time for is the Irish Republican Socialist Party(IRSP/INLA), which split from The Worker's Party (Official Sinn Fein/IRA) in the mid 1970s. Republican Socialism is based on the theories of James Connolly theorist and trade union leader executed by the British for his part in the 1916 rising. The party currently known as (Provisional) Sinn Fein pay lip-service to republican socialism but that's about as far as they go.

    I have never heard of Becensanot and am sure his party does not exist in Ireland.

    Rory

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  3. Rory - Socialism is hardly a new idea; it's been tried with various cruel dictatorships during my brief lifetime. Marx, Lenin, Stalin,
    Trotsky, Hitler and Mussolini, etc.

    Now, Obama's 'Progressivism & Redistribution of Wealth' - (Good Grief, Gertrude!)
    >
    Jefferson/Madison 'Bill of Rights' including our 1st Amendment served fairly well for over
    230 years. If you are unfamiliar with it, it's our freedom of speech, press, religions(plural...plus the freedom to peacefully assemble, and petition the government for a redress of grievences.

    The Preamble to the U.S. Constitution says...

    "We the People of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, ensure domestic tranquility, promote the general welfare, and provide for the common defense...do ordain & establish this Constitution for the United States of America.
    "

    Ben Franklin said: "A republic, if you can keep it."

    When 56 radical colonists signed that old Declaration of Independence on July 4, 1776, Britain's King George wanted to stretch their traitorous, radical necks!

    Eighty-five years later, Lincoln signed the Emancipation Proclamation ending slavery forever on this continent.

    Human slavery records have existed since King Hammuabi's Babylon, 1800 BCE!

    One Small Step for the U.S., one giant leap for humanity.
    >
    Two steps forward, one step back; that seems to be the evolutionary process, doesn't it?

    Sorry if I interrupted, please continue. - reb
    _____________________________________________

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  4. Reb,

    Neither Marx nor Trotsky were dictators. I would certainly not endorse the other four you mentioned. The idea of a centralized, one party state makes me shudder.

    While the US was a fine example of early republicanism, it is flawed and has not moved with the times. It was relatively late to abolish slavery, or give equal rights to all it's citizens.

    It still practices such barbaric acts as capital punishment and torture and it seems to have imperial ambitions.

    The electoral system is archaic, unfair and untrustworthy.

    Must try harder!

    Rory

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  5. Islam Has Unification...against infidels, pagans and non-believers; but Shiite Persia is intolerant of Sunni Wahabbism and Saudi Arabia & Egypt fear Iran's Nuke Potentials, and that contest is both obvious...and unchangable.

    While "early republicanism" provided the fledgling new colonies with a set of laws without parallel anywhere in history for its inventive genius, and a rapid growth into an industrial powerhouse, it also excelled in science, transportation, and agriculture to feed a starving Old Europe. Immigrants poured into our continent, to give the "huddled masses" a unique chance to sample "Liberty & Justice For All." Our Laws Put an End to Human Slavery as a national policy forever...in North America, Rory.

    Late to Abolish Slavery? Not at all... We were the First to do so, and 'Freedom to Think' Did It!

    Barbarism & Imperialism? Where did you find these unkind words & phrases? Perhaps from a used book-store, stocked by an elderly, grump socialist?

    reb
    ______________________________________________

    ReplyDelete
  6. Yeah, we "imperialized" the Warlords of Japan & Germany pretty well; sixty years after WWII they are a bit more peaceful & productive now, selling Toyotas, Hondas, Mercedez, BMW & Volkswagons around the globe.

    Have you ever read about the Marshall Plan (rebuilding a devastated Germany) or the 'Berlin Wall', or our aid to Japan, and confronting the U.S.S.R. to save Europe?

    Also, read about the Berlin Air-Lift, and the Berlin Wall. More humanitarian stuff funded by the U.S. Tax-payer; just evidence of more imperialist ambitions, right Rory?
    >
    What we don't do, is chopping off heads on Tv, or stone young girls, and mutilate live captives by "cutting off hands & feet from opposite sides" for mischief in the land, as a disgrace...or Crusifixion! - Qur'an 5:33

    reb

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  7. Written in documents are the afore mentioned ideals for the United States coming into formation of a verifiable nation.

    It is and has been the painful delusion of our country's children, that education is a right. This one struggle, the right to education is embedded in every single strife within ourselves.

    The educational system here should endorse the preamble of the constitution. All matters of state follow it, in theory.

    I can name one area where the above preamble of the United States Constitution was not set up for the betterment of all its people and where many were puppified,

    Education of the public was actually put into place to teach the lower classes how to understand the process of being paid by a bossman and using money to support the bossman and his associates.

    Education of the masses was intended to teach the masses about Christianity.

    Education of the worker was set up to teach their children how to wash their faces and hands, even if the worker had no access to clean water, spare clean water for cooking.

    Education of the masses was set up in order to teach the poor the finer qualities of the law, such as those laws making birth control illegal.

    Has the preamble served all of the people of the United States of America? Certainly this question must be considered. We need to compare life as it was when public education was set up and education as it is today.

    Anyone game?

    moonlitetwine

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  8. Urban_Underclass,

    I'm thinking my entry might be off subject. When someone begins waving the US flag and tries to overpower others with my countries preamble, I begin to think about education.

    moonlite

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  9. Rather than refute factual point by point WWII History and its aftermath, or U.S. 18th Century Founding Documents, Moonlight Lady chooses to ignore my comments, and insert "education & clean water for cooking!"

    That's a rather typical and obvious purposeful technic of distraction.

    Our Founding Fathers provided a Paradigm of Beneficial Law; what politicians (or disgruntled citizens) do with that remarkable gift is another story.

    It might be helpful to 'stay on point', and discuss Socialism's "redistribution of wealth"
    as compared to "Free Enterprise" and our human greed for things unearned...and 1st Amendment Fundamentals.

    Fact or Fancy, Truth or Deception, Which Do You Good People Prefer? - reb
    _ _ _ _ _ _ _

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  10. Reb, Moonlite,

    Thanks for your comments, personally I don't mind people going off subject on this one. I am currently trying to work out is Republican Socialism a valid political philosophy and anything that stimulates dabate is welcome.

    What struck me on the other blog was that republicanism should be inclusive and based on citizenship rather than national identity, so I think Moonlite's education remarks may be valid.

    Socialism is always a tricky subject. It is hard to explain how not like the USSR or China socialism is. Also while Europe may appear more socialist than America, it remains utterly committed to the capitalist system. A system that is failing catastrophically as I write this.

    I don't think socialism can save us now, but maybe a new and better civilization will spring up from the ruins of ours.

    Rory

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  11. "American-Progressive-Socialism" ala B.H. Obama is failing, public support waning, as ideas of tax-spend-borrow-elect become obvious.

    Unemployment rises, people become alarmed; investment-capital gurus witness the trend-lines, see that these 'socialist-progressive' notions do not deliver the free food, free medicine, and low-cost homes the workers were promised. These "changes" only create an inflationary currency, and as Rory indicates, capitalism suffers catastrophic losses; so, unemployment is the end result.

    The Voters -- will carry the ball soon; not the
    Soros, Stern, Pritzger, Geffen billionaire crowd of so-called Liberals, and We.the. People will bring about the necessary changes, back to a free-market economy.

    We've had our one-year experiment with Giddy Progressivism, and we've suffered some heavy losses, and the next election cycle in November we'll re-adjust, back to solid free-market fundamentals.

    The "gloom & doom", blowin' in the wind folks in Europe -- just don't understand the Free-Enterprise System...they are too busy pointing the finger of blame at Right-Wing Conservatives!

    reb
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  12. Question; What do you get when you cross a Socialist-Progressive Liberal with a Pig?

    Answer: That's impossible; there are some things a pig won't do! - reb
    __________________________________

    ReplyDelete
  13. Wowee! I just found this tonight on our Link Page, see 'Right Truth'...Feb 15th.

    Debbie reports that "Hamas Commander was Assassinated by...the Irish?-! Is anyone here familiar with an Irish lady named Gail Folliard? - reb
    ______________________________

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  14. Reb,

    There is no such thing as a Socialist-Progressive Liberal, Socialists and Liberals are sworn enemies politically.

    This is the problem with the American political system, economically there is no real ideological difference between the only two parties, both believe in liberal free market economics.

    They may disagree on social issues that are largely related to religious beliefs but here, ironically, the Republican Party is in fact anti-republican since they are failing to be secular and inclusive.

    Rory

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  15. S/H

    I am gratified you attacked me. I can know what you believe. I cannot read all of your posts, however. Your remarks are bigoted, laughable and off-center.

    Education is the best path to freedom. Any orphan can tell you that. Ask Obama. Let's see...how old was Obama when he was orphaned by his father?

    Take your pantie waste elsewhere.

    ReplyDelete
  16. Reb,

    "Gail Folliard" is a cover name being used by some Mossad spooks using Irish passports. Almost certainly Isreali-Zionist assassins taking advantage of Ireland's good name.

    Rory

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  17. Reb,

    Furthermore I don't see how you can pontificate about other people's offensive comments on your blog when you let yourself down with such a childish joke.

    Well I do see how you can, you are an utter hypocrite. Grow up!

    Rory

    ReplyDelete
  18. Rory - I understand your confusion, since you don't have daily access to U.S. Politics.

    In The Early Days of the Union Movement in America we had some Communist Influence, but the UMW, United Mine Workers, led by John L. Lewis. He was a tough, decent man, that got the 10 yr old kids out of coal mines, and back in school (that's why we were Democrats).

    Later, the MAFIA took control of Longshore Shipping Docks, Auto Unions, Teamsters (Trucking) Industry, etc AND the Democratic Party (See Jimmy Hoffa Assassination). These Bozo's use rough tactics, and 'rank & file' members can get their heads bloodied! Larger Unions weild a heavy hammer...are now a major influence in U.S. Politics!

    Again, "Power Corrupts, Absolute Power Corrupts Absolutely!)

    Andrew Stern (SEIU Union Boss) has had weekly meetings with Obama for over a year; now that's POWER that Independents & Conservatives must deal with At The Polls, Next Novermber!

    reb
    >
    >
    (Moonlite Lady, now playing the victim? How sweet!) I may challenge silly notions, but I don't "attack" ladies. - reb
    _____________________________________________

    ReplyDelete
  19. reb,

    whatever dude. I do notice your attempts to place yourself above me. When, you attack an orphan, you attack a giant group of people.

    Notice you didn't use more fascist remarks against Obama. Don't wanna get caught being a bigot against a certain race. Use only a certain group of mixed race persons.

    So apparently two steps forward and one step back in order to misrepresent your beliefs.

    Stop your two edged sword. Butter your bread on one side.

    ReplyDelete
  20. The reports of the Fake Irish passport are true and verified. It was a Mossad Hit. They took the room across from the Hamas Official and knocked on his door.
    I read the words of this snake oil guy and how he talks about changing the subject and staying on the thread. As far as I can see, he has ranted about everything but the thread.
    We have, rather than a discussion of socialism, every cliche about christianity, american patriotism, non specific racist hatred of a black president and ignorant generalization from a yahoos point of view about socialism with out actually understanding what he is talking about.
    How many posts did he deposit here of empty flag waving, examples of inhuman cruelty in very scary alien cultures, complete ignorance of world economics and the fact that capitalism is very much alive and well in the rest of the world....I could go on, but it's hard to have any kind of discussion when one person is playing his national anthem loud enough to obscure the sound of nothing but the wind blowing through his head.

    Standing on your little soapbox,waving ypour flag screaming booga booga doesn't impress anyone.

    ReplyDelete
  21. I have a question, rory, what does the north star constellation (ursa major) stand for?

    ReplyDelete
  22. Microdot,

    That's the Starry Plough, the symbol of Irish Republican Socialism (it predates the flag of Alaska). Originally used by James Connolly's Irish Citizen Army, which took part, along with the more conservative Irish Volunteers in the 1916 rising. (The Volunteers were mobilized for the rising by the secret Irish Republican Brotherhood, which became the IRA.

    Basically there have always been two strands of Irish Republicanism, Socialist, with the Starry Plough for a symbol and flag and not-socialist, who use the tricolour.

    The white stars on the blue background is used primarily by the Irish Republican Socialist Party, but Sinn Fein also use it (as this article states don't believe SF are socialist, so think they have a bit of cheek using the flag).

    The stalinists in the Worker's Party use an elaborate version with a red star on a white background

    I am not sure what motivates SNAKEHUNTERS, he certainly likes to rile people, but I am way past the stage where he could possibly bother me, in fact I know how to press his buttons and rile him.

    While he is seeped in redneck, NASCAR, good 'ol boy prejudices, he is actually less nasty than his two best internet buddies who would not look out of place in Adolf Hitler's bunker were it not for their lack of intelligence.

    I keep lines of communication open with him in the hope that some knowledge of the good things in the weird and wonderful world beyond the bible belt will seep into his brain.

    Rory

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  23. Thanks for the info about the constellation. I had never heard the reference to the Starry Plough before. It's always been The Big Dipper or the Big Bear to me. Big Bear is American Indian.

    You are making me read about Irish Socialism and the modern history of the Irish Republic.
    SnakeHunter is an annoyance. He makes noise but no sense. He generates thusands of words of jingoistic inanity that you must scroll through to get to something intelligent.
    I was pursued for a few years by a fat evangelical christian woman in Toledo, Ohio who would post entire sections of biblical verse and take up (We estimated once that she wrote a 10,000 word post) all the space ranting her hate filled screeds.
    She loved everyone, she was so filled with Christs love that she wanted to put all the homosexuals in some kind of separate place where they could be "cured" and was sure that she had seen demonic possesions...well she didn't actually see it, but she knew someone who really did...
    She knew all there was to know about Islamic culture because she had read a few books that told her only what she wanted to believe.
    She refused to accept that I actually knew and had Moslem friends who actually invited nme into their homes! he kept claiming that i would end up with my throat slit.
    That is the tragedy of willful ignorance. The cycle of You can't understand cause you don't understand what you won't understand cause you can't undersand what you won't understand cause you will never understand...etc, etc...yadda yadda..........

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  24. Microdot,

    Yeah in Ireland we always called that constellation 'the plough', you hear it called 'ursa major' or 'the great bear' as well sometimes, I suppose that's it's official name.

    I forgot to say if you click on the image of the book cover on this post to enlarge you can see in the top right hand corner the Worker's Party's elaborate version with an actual plough with a dagger on it superimposed on the constellation.

    Rory

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  25. Interesting imagery. Do you know the history of the French Resistance in WW2? The Resistance was largely communist/socialist. The Communist party was a huge force here in France prior to WW2.
    The actual street fighting of the Liberation of Paris was a coordinated action of Communist Resistance cadres. There were many Jewish Communists. It was a nasty power struggle by DeGaulle that suppressed the true history of the French Resistance for many years...the real story was not really told until the late 60's.
    The evolution of the Socialist party here is very interesting.
    The ideology of the parties is constantly evolving. That is why I asked about Becensanot.
    To see him grow and evolve ideologically since the late 90's has been a very interesting phenomena.
    Interesting that he has a base in Scotland, but not in Ireland.

    To say that Communism or Socialism is directly opposed to the idea of democracy is an ignorant statement based on an xenophobic propagandist hysterical ideology.

    ReplyDelete
  26. Microdot,

    Thinking about him I think I may have seen something about Becensanot on TV a while back. I've been thinking and reading a lot about socialism recently as well as trying to get active.

    The problem I find with most socialist groups is they tend to have a very egotistical leadership, who defend their position to the last against any egotistical upstarts that come along. The result seems to be endless fragmentation and splinter groups as the upstarts grow unhappy with the leadership.

    Every now and then a really charismatic leader comes along like Joe Higgins in Ireland or Becensanot in France (if he is who I think he is) who seems to be able to hold a movement together for a while, but one always wonders what will happen to the movement once that leader is gone.

    The last Trotskyist group I was involved with were just too strange. I couldn't disagree with their policies, but they seemed pretty paraniod, I couldn't see why.

    Rory

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  27. Rory - I still have your exact words: "Since I am a Christian in the true sense of the word..." Refr: Feb 2nd.

    I thought you may appreciate Barack Obama's own words, sound on film, on S/H Post, U-Tube dated February 17th. The title: What did Obama Say? (9.57 minutes.)

    Perhaps Moonlight may wish to comment. - Best Regards to All. - reb

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  28. microdot: Communism is most certainly opposed to the idea of democracy. Just look at the USSR under Lenin and Stalin. Remember the Gulags. Look at the subjugation of Eastern Europe and the Berlin Wall. Remember the East Berlin Uprising of 1953 and the Hungarian Uprising of 1956 which were crushed by Soviet tanks. Soviet tanks crushed the Prague Spring of 1968. Similarly China has trampled on democracy.
    Mao was a tyrant. Free speech is still suppressed in China. Remember the Tiananmen Square massacre.
    Communism only allows a one party state. It is totally undemocratic.

    ReplyDelete
  29. I'll Offer This Challenge...

    To any snychronic guest of this weblog to accept, without rancor or fear. Read the short article by Dharmaveer - Islam's Creed "Convert or Die!" - See -- >

    http://dharmaveer.blogspot.com

    Then return here, tell us if (a) Irish Socialism or (b) 1400 yrs of Islamic bloodlust & predation; of the two, which subject today deserves a more serious study and consideration...

    Which is more important to the world? - reb
    _ _ _ _ _

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  30. Rory,

    How are you?

    I have been too busy the last days. I'm studying now Illustrator program. It consumes time so much.

    Anyway, I cannot add a useful comment on this post, but there is one question. You mentioned IRA. I have heard before that it was classified as a violent movement. Is that right?

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  31. Well, that's a smoothe distraction to deflect people away from commenting on the important question of Irish Socialism Vs Islamic History;
    you're a clever rascal, Mohamed Fadly...

    but I'm not surprised. reb
    _________________________________________

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  32. Mohamed,

    Sorry this post is really just me thinking out loud, it just skims over a very complex subject.

    Yes the IRA was violent, it split in 1970 into two groups, the Provisional and Official IRAs. The Provisionals went on to fight a bloody war wth Britain in Northern Ireland in the 1970s,80s and 90s.

    The Officials became the armed wing of a revolutionary Marxist party. They tended to focus on providing protection for these Marxists and raising funds through bank robberies and fraud.

    Rory

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  33. Ah, now I understand why there were comments about Communism and Socialism.

    In Egypt we had an era of Socialism, the era of our 2nd president Gamal Abd al-Naser. We built within it great economic projects and factories, plus the two jewels of the crown; Nationalizing of Suez Canal that coasted us an attack by the three of Britain, France and Israel, and building the High Dam funded by the USSR. It was better in economy and welfare, but not very good at politics and democracy.

    Thanks Rory, for the information.

    ----

    Snake Hunters,

    What are you talking about!!

    ReplyDelete
  34. Mohamed - If a radio is capable of receiving only a single frequency, the listener will never hear the other messages.

    I hear his question, "What are you talking about?"

    Example: If the human brain of a young person is "conditioned" to hear about one thought, one philosophy or one prophet, he is destined to "believe" in only one religious concept, and considers all the others as 'the enemy' that must be either converted, or slaughtered...or to be subordinated..."and feel themselves subdued" - Qur'an 9:29

    Infidels! Pagans! Non-Belivers! "..strike terror into (the hearts of) the enemies of Allah, and your enemies. Qur'an 8:60

    Tune In & Turn On...but Don't Drop Out; there is hope that your lifetime will, in time, have a significant future, teaching others. -

    "The Wisest Mind Has Something Yet To Learn"

    reb
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  35. I just put another long comment (follows) on the blog The Pensive Quill confusingly (although there is a reason) this comment is on an earlier post, The Borefast Agreement, a boring post where we all agreed the recent 'historic' Belfast Agreement on policing and justice in Northern Ireland was utterly boring, so I turned the discussion around to the recently deceased leader of The Worker's Party, Tomas McGiolla.

    This lead to an interesting discussion on the blog into the nature of Irish Republicanism that ran over three non-consecutive posts on the blog,

    The Borefast Agreement, Dis/topia [sic]ness and Responding To Seán Mór

    Over the course of the discussion I bought and read the book The Lost Revolution as well as read other research material and talked to some Republicans.

    I learnt a lot from this discussion, not just about the nature of Irish Republican Socialism but also about the recent history of my own country and about myself and how I relate to the world.

    This is why I blog, to learn and share ideas, not to shove my world view down other people's throats. Comment follows,

    Rory

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  36. Comment posted on The Pensive Quill, Borefast Agreement Post

    Marty, Antony,

    Well having read 'The Lost Revolution', I can see why ye would dislike the Stickies in general, but it's hard to see what was wrong with McGiolla in particular. While I found it an excellent read, the book gave only bare outlines of the personalities of McGiolla, Garland, Costello, De Rossa & Co. (I suspect this had a lot to do with De Rossa's astonishing libel case against Independent Newspapers).

    I can also understand how ye would hate the Stickies for colluding with the security forces but think it is very hard to know who or what to believe. Obviously, it suited the cops to have them there feuding with the Provos and the cops gave them an easy ride for that, but the book says several times that the establishment saw them as a bigger threat than the Provos in the long run.

    The Brothers Fighting Brothers chapter with the horrible four way feud between the OIRA/UVF/PIRA/IRSP and the cops helping out and no doubt fanning the flames where they could is utterly sad.

    I didn't mind the criminality, they were genuinely trying to raise funds for a left wing revolution and at least they managed to get a few TDs elected down south and scare the ruling classes for a bit.

    There is nothing in the book to suggest that the OIRA/Group B volunteers were carrying out these operations for personal gain. I was impressed by their policy of not 'claiming' operations and of not declaring themselves members of a political organization when caught but going down as ordinary criminals. It seems utterly subversive.

    So, anyway the book was worth the price, an interesting read, but I'm none the wiser about McGiolla. I still respect him for 'sticking' to his guns (even if they were dodgy Stalinist guns) and not selling out with the rest of the WP TDs at the Democratic Left split. I lot of idealistic people put in a lot of work and a few did time and a few even died to get those TDs elected and most of did not do it to hand the seats over to Fine Gael and Labour. That was obvious from Democratic Left's complete lack of a grassroots base. They inspired nobody.

    I was lucky in 1987 when I first voted to be able to vote Worker's Party, a real, scary left wing party. I would like to think that had the option been on the ballot I would have voted IRSP but I would still have given the Worker's Party my number two.

    There is nothing like them where I live now, the most left wing thing on the ticket these days is Labour, or Sinn Fein or Fianna Fail. But I can no longer delude myself that any of them are left wing at all. They are just managers, safe hands for a European corporate super-state.

    So maybe I miss the possibility that McGiolla stood for in my mind when I was young.

    Sorry about the long comments lately Antony, I'm just working something out in my head the last few weeks, and this blog had been very helpful.

    Rory

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  37. Reb,

    Here's an offer you can't refuse...

    Why don't you do a guest post on This Blog on the atomic bombs dropped on Japan and we can all debate it here. You can bring along all your warmonger friends.

    Blog of Blogs rules apply so no comments deleted, moderated or forgotten ever so be careful what you write or you may be psychoanalyzed by pHd students for decades to come.

    Obviously being a fair minded man I will link the post you your blog so you will get some extra traffic.

    The ball is in your court Reb.

    Rory

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  38. Hi Rory,

    Interesting stuff. I had noticed some of your comments on MacIntyre's blog, but missed the more recent ones.

    Regarding republicanism as a political philosophy, here are my own thoughts

    http://garibaldy.wordpress.com/2009/05/04/republicanism-political-philosophy-or-perverted-theology/

    I suppose the short version of that link is that to be republican, one must believe in secularism, anti-sectarianism, democracy, independence and socialism. Anyone claiming to be a socialist republican who fails on any one of these to my mind is not a socialist or a republican. Which excludes organisations responsible for things like Kingsmill and Darkley.

    I don't really want to go over the ground of the 1970s here as thankfully we are well past those days, and left cooperation is the future, but I think there are a number of things worth pointing out.

    Firstly, as Rory notes, the majority of republicans stayed with the leadership in 1969. As has been clear since 1969 when it was first exposed in the United Irishman newspaper, the emergence of the Provisionals was facilitated by the most corrupt elements of Fianna Fáil, represented most clearly by Charlie Haughey. In other words, there was a deliberate attempt to foster an anti-socialist counter-gang to the socialist programme of the Republican Movement which culminated with its transformation into The Workers' Party.

    Regarding allegations of collusion. The people making this claim do so as a means to smear political opponents and to deny the realities of the penetration of their own organisations. So, the fact that the Republican Movement was engaging with people from right across the community from NI was used to make allegations of collusion with loyalists. However, when Seamus Costello or Ruari O'Bradaigh did it, they were taking bold steps. Equally, it suited those involved in violence to blame outsiders for the fact that their organisations were compromised. In fact, as is now abundantly clear, those organisations were penetrated from top to bottom, and the scapegoating of outsiders was a distraction.

    As for the claims made by former members or supporters. And this relates to the point about Mac Giolla's integrity. Mac Giolla dedicated virtually his entire life to republicanism. He stayed loyal to anti-sectarianism and to socialism, and the means of achieving that - a party of and for the working class. Along the way, unfortunately, various individuals and groups of people, have proven themselves incapable of sustaining that long, difficult and often bitter struggle. So those who went DL or who by their own admission retreated from politics altogether then attack the integrity of people like MacGiolla to cover their own retreat. Similarly those who were part of organisations that committed many murders that violated the very basic principles of republicanism as espoused by Tone and Connolly must also smear those who pointed that out. I guess people can't admit the reality of their actions, and so they lash out at those whose politics are a vision of a different way of acting, and of a different republicanism.

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  39. Garibady,

    Thanks for your input, glad to have a Worker's Party perspective. I skimmed your long post on your own blog, but have bookmarked it and will return later.

    I'm busy at the moment trying to get a good boycott going on Northern Foods/Green Isle.

    I agree with you that left unity is vital going forward. As I have been telling anyone (who matters) who will listen for the last nine months or so, if the left in Ireland can't make progress now, it never will.

    I think your definition of republicanism is valid, but I am not ready to justify terror. I don't like Leninists let alone Stalinists. That said I am probably going to have to make a few compromises in the near future.

    I like Antony McIntyre's vision of Republicanism in the Pensive Quill post Responding To Seán Mór. It is a nice and succinct definition for me.

    Basically what I have been doing the last few weeks is moving out of the Socialist Worker's Party and into the I.R.S.P which has not been an easy decision. (Well, leaving the S.W.P was a no brainer). But I'm looking forward to the next phase in my political journey.

    Hopefully we can all start to agree on a few things in the near future.

    Rory

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  40. Rory - If I try to follow Irish Politics, I just get hopelessly confused!

    When I tell friends that I've always been a Democrat, but recently it no longer represents
    anything that I can endorse, so now I qualify
    it with "I'm a Jeffersonian Democrat, or a John L. Lewis Democrat, and now vote the Republican Label, opposing "Progressive Socialism", I occasionally get blank stares from friends & neighbors. Some do understand.

    I wanted to say something more to Mohamed on his blog-site, but he deleted me, so I'll try
    here on another of your posts.

    Please continue with Sir Garibaldy. - reb
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  41. Reb,

    Garibaldy is a revolutionary socialist, I doubt if he would like the prefix 'Sir', furthermore, he's from the terrifying Worker's Party/Official IRA.

    Shit, it's a lucky thing you do such a good job of hiding your identity.

    Rory

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  42. Rory - I really admired Sir Winston Churchill;
    but what's in a given name, or a "prefix" for that matter. It's courage, and the proper use of fundamental principles that identifies the value of a man, or a woman.

    English Common Law was a vital step in the evolutionary process leading eventually to our
    U.S. Legal Paradigms that served the primitive colonies pretty well for over two centuries!

    The only thing I'm really good at "hiding", is my genius for spotting a phony, And an innate ability to calculate and avoid another man's negatives; ever alert for the Con-Man, and I retain a healthy skepticism of all political & religious theories, and the men that claim to know the "Creator", (then ask you for a $1,000 Love Offering!)

    Do you have any Televangelists in Ireland?

    Whoa, coming up on 1:45 Am Eastern! Time for a half-ounce of Apricot Brandy, and half-a- cigarette. Cheerio Lad, reb

    reb
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  43. Article in todays Sunday Independent (big selling right wing Irish newspaper), mentioning the unmentionable, parties that the right likes to pretend don't exist,

    The Socialist Worker's Party
    The Irish Republican Socialist Party
    Republican Sinn Fein

    about, their words, "The Battle of Green Isle" (the big strike I was telling you we were working on Ann), their words, "class war"

    CLICK HERE FOR THE BEST OPINION PIECE I'VE EVER READ IN A FASCIST RAG

    I can't stop smiling.
    The worker's won.

    Vive la revolution!

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  44. This comment has been removed by the author.

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  45. Later,

    Almost a year om, and to update this a little I would like to make three points:

    1) I have since met many members of the Worker's Party.

    2) I know why the INLA decommisioned.

    3) I joined the IRSP.

    Rory

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