Yes I know he looks like the villain from a cheesy 1960's James Bond movie, but he's not, he was an all round Zionist hero as well as being Israel's Defence and Foreign minister at various times.
All quotes and their sources can be seen at: www.palistineremembered.com
Here goes...
"[houses were destroyed] not in battle, but as punishment . . . and in order to CHASE AWAY the inhabitants . . . contrary to government policy."
"we must understand the motives and causes of the continued emigration of the [Palestinian] Arabs, from both the Gaza Strip and the West Bank, and not to undermine these causes after all, we want to create a new map."
"We want [Palestinian] emigration, we want a normal standard of living, we want to encourage emigration according to a selective program."
"The proposed policy [of raising the level of public service in the occupied territories] may clash with our intention to encourage emigration from both [Gaza] Strip and Judea and Samaria. Anyone who has practical ideas or proposal to encourage emigration----let him speak up. No idea or proposal is to be dismissed out of hand."
"Our American friends offer us money, arms, and advice. We take the money, we take the arms, and we decline the advice."
"There is no more Palestine. Finished . . ."
"a new State of Israel with broad frontiers, strong and solid, with the authority of the Israel Government extending from the Jordan [river] to the Suez Canal."
One thing I like about Dayan is that he told the truth, very unusual for a politician, but I think he was a soldier first.
WOW!
ReplyDeleteThanks for this worthy post, Rory.
ReplyDeleteIt reveals the truth of Israeli intentions. No Peace At All. When they want to dominate on this land, then how should we believe any claim of them that they want peace and share one land!
They are working on achieving the "new map" these days very rapidly. They are demolishing homes of Arabs in Jerusalem, Changing the names of streets into Jewish names, rising the rate of building settlements around the mosque of Al-Aqsa, stealing the monuments of the mosque, digging more tunnels under the mosque to force it to demolish "by itself", they even attacked the mosque few months ago and trapped the prayers inside.
They believe that their Mount Of The Temple must be built in the same place of the mosque Al-Aqsa. They will demolish it sooner or later.
It's not just a political conflict for them, but a religious one.
Thanks Mohamed,
ReplyDeleteYour last post reminded me how angry I was last year at the time of the Gaza massacre, so I did some research.
It is obvious to anyone who thinks with an open mind that Israel is and always has been following a policy of ethnic cleansing against the Palestinian people. Here is just some proof, spoken by a very senior and highly regarded Israeli politician.
Of course this situation angers some Palestinians so much that they resist in whatever small way they can and then they are labeled as terrorists and criminals and used as an excuse for incredibly harsh retribution against Palestinian civilians.
Europe and America pretend to be 'honest brokers' in this dispute, where the fault lies entirely with the Israelis but all the time they support Israel in various ways. This has nothing to do with religious belief in my opinion. Remember how harshly they dealt with Serbia when it tried to ethnically cleanse Bosnian Muslims?
This is all about world power politics, it suits Europe and America to have Israel as a base from which to keep oil-rich Arab World under control. Just as it suited Europe and America to punish Serbia in order to prevent a Russian- Serbian alliance becoming too strong in the Balklands.
Meanwhile simple minded people in Europe and America are duped into seeing Muslims as dangerous outsiders with dubious morals, exactly how Jews were portrayed in Europe up until 1945.
It is all so obvious, yet people are so blinded by hate and prejudice that they can't see it.
As for the issue of Iran and nuclear weapons which so exercised one commenter on your last post. I mean the only state in the middle east that has them also happens to be the most war happy state and I can understand how that might make their neighbors nervous but no power in Europe or America cares because it is obvious that they want these neighbors nervous.
I have little faith in humanity, all I see is hypocrisy and violence, direct and often enough by proxy, for material gain.
Rory
Yeah, it's all about those greedy, hate-filled, hypocritical Americans...never about those Peace-loving, Moderate-Sounding Muslims.
ReplyDeletereb
_______________
Reb,
ReplyDeleteI didn't single out America, I blamed Europe equally.
Can you explain why America made such an effort to suppress Serbia, yet did not lift a finger to restrain Israel when they attacked the residents of the Gaza strip one year ago today?
(In fact Congress almost unanimously passed a motion of support for Israel).
I just heard on the radio that the Gaza strip remains a total humanitarian disaster area, this disaster is totally man-made.
Rory
Rory,
ReplyDeleteSome of the old saws prove true. You are judged by the company you keep. Inasmuch as you are currently engaged in a love fest w/ Mohamed I doubt anything I might advise would have an effect on any opinions you may hold as I fear you are too far gone for rational discourse.
I know the good fathers probably did not devote as much time to Genesis as they did to the New Testament, but I am certain you recall the story of Adam and Eve: how Eve was seduced by the Serpent. There is an object lesson for you here. Mohamed is a serpent. Beautiful and honey tongued; how you have fallen for his charms. I can only remind you about the old song about the woman who found the half frozen snake on her way to work.
The Gaza strip does remain a humanitarian disaster, exacerbated by Israel's embargo. I always find it useful, however, to study history, a subject entirely foreign to Mohamed. He tends to make it up out whole cloth as he goes along. I do not converse w/ him anymore b/c unlike the lawyers w/ whom I associate, Mohamed does not inhabit an evidence based reality.
Back to Gaza. Let me remind you. The Gazan's chose Hamas as its governing party. Hamas is dedicated to Israel's destruction. Missiles flew from Gaza into Israel on a daily basis. In response, Israel invaded Gaza and reduced what was already a slum into mostly rubble.
Have you noticed how few missiles are fired from Gaza into Israel these days?
Let us touch again on the subject of history. The Palestinians have never, in their entire history, have been independent and autonomous and there is no reason to expect them to get it right immediately. No other society has.
That said, you would do well to remember how the Palestinians have been kicked and around and used as cats' paws by their Arab brethren.
After the end of the Arab-Israel War of 1948, Egypt, Jordan, and Syria happily divided the rest of Palestine amongst themselves. When the PLO threatened internal security in Jordan, King Hussein expelled them in 1968. Look at Egypt's relationship w/ Gaza.
So, to answer your qustion as to why the U.S. did not lift a finger to restrain Israel last year? See above. The intelligent citizens of my country read history and understand that in time of war, there are two kinds of choices: bad choices and worse choices.
Do you suppose the invasion of Gaza would have occurred had Hamas abandoned that part of its charter regarding Israel's right to exist?
Do you think it would have occurred had Hamas not fired missiles into Israel on a daily basis?
Could the IDF have shown more restraint? Certainly. But remember that if your government is going to declare war on a country, particularly a country vastly more powerful than your own, then you should not be surprised when your civilian population suffers the consequences of its government's policies.
One more point. Snake Mohamed's pronouncement about the religious war. Precisely what war do you think he is waging, Rory? One for justice?
This is how he describes himself:
"Muslim, Arab, Egyptian..."
First by religion, next by race, only third by nationality.
If your positions were reversed, the best for which you could hope would be second class citizen status.
"Proud of the Pyramids. Proud of the great Pharoah civilization"
Now let us examine these fragments. The Great Pyramid was indeed one of the seven wonders of the ancient world. The tomb of Cheops was built with slave labor.
"Proud of the great Pharoah civilation." Amongst my people, the word "Pharoah" is synonomous w/ "tyrant."
"When Israel was in Egypt's land
Let my people go,
Oppressed so hard they could not stand,
Let my people go,
"Go down, Moses,
Way down in Egypt's land,
Tell ol' Pharoah,
Let my people go."
Rory. Why do you trust this person?
Regards,
The Loop Garoo Kid
TLGK,
ReplyDeleteThank you for your reasoned comment, I shall attempt to give a concise and structured reply that does it justice.
To being I will address the first few paragraphs of your comment which relate to my friend Mohamed.
I have first became engaged in Middle East Politics when I went to a meeting organized by some P.L.O member is Waterford Institute of Technology, Ireland in 1985. One of the senior P.L.O members in our college happened to be in my class, studying electronic engineering. Let's just say he was a very intelligent, well balanced human being. Since then I have met many muslims in Ireland, Germany and England. Arabs, Turks, Pakistanis, one Afghan that I can think of. They are just people, some good, some bad, but none fit the stereotype that is being propagated on SNAKEHUNTERS or many other blogs that usually seem to come from the Southern or Western States of your country.
I have met a fair few Jews too. In 2005 I had the pleasure of having christmas dinner with a jewish man from north London who is married to an Irish woman. We had a very interesting conversation about Jewish culture, but politely did not mention the war. The only conversation I ever had with an Israeli was exactly a year ago when I rang the Israeli Consular Service to try to find out what was going on in Gaza and why. Believe me they can be beautiful and honey tongued as well.
So, I like Mahomed for several reasons, but mainly because he is sincerely trying to create dialogue with people like yourself and Reb who have a very bad impression of Islam. An impression which I don't share maybe because I have met more Muslims and have a better idea of what their real hope dreams and motivations are.
So that's Mahomed covered. I think he's sincere, in ways far more tolerant and patient than myself, and I respect what he is trying to achieve through his Understanding Islam Blog.
So now, on to Gaza.
I am not going to repeat everything I have written on this post, it comments and on the comments section of Mahomed's previous post so I will simply say that whatever Hamas is or is not, it is the legitimate government of the Gaza Strip. To describe what they are doing in terms of war is just plain silly. They have no weapons or resources to fight a war against Israel. Firing rockets is just young men letting off steam, as you might feel like doing yourself if you were being ethnically cleansed. Please read my post, and my comment on Serbia and maybe respond to that.
Finally, no I do not agree with Mahomed that it is a religious war, it is a war against Zionism. As I pointed out earlier, this is a very convenient war for Europe and America. My own policy in this debate is to remain secular, I will not use any sacred texts to illustrate my arguments, however, as Mahomed's desire is to explain the nature of the Islamic Religion, I can understand why he quotes the Koran.
Since you or I were never held captive by the Pharoah, since these events may or may not have happened 4,000 years ago and since the Greeks and Romans from whom we derive our culture were slave owners as well and since 200 years ago our both cultures used african slaves I really don't see the point you are trying to win with your closing remarks.
Regards,
Rory
TLGK,
ReplyDeleteOne point I missed out on when trying to reply to your long comment:
History:
I recently read a book called, "Ploughing Sand: British Rule in Palestine, 1917-1948" by Naomi Shepherd. It is one of many books on the mid-east conflicts that I have read recently. It was tough going, not the kind of book you would read for entertainment, just a lot of facts and statistics.
But the gist of it is, the Zionist show up starting from the late 19th century. There are already Jews and Christians in Palestine (a Turkish Colony up until the end of WWI). These newcomers are mainly secular Jews from east and central Europe, righteously enough looking for a homeland where they won't be persecuted for their racial origin or religious beliefs. Many are progressive, socialists even!
They start buying and leasing land from the Arabs, who like many people at the time including my own, were backward and poverty stricken due to centuries of colonial rule and exploitation. Needless to say many Arabs are happy to sell their unfertile lands to these seemingly naive idealistic newcomers.
The Brits show up, not exactly going to spend too much money and expertise on this troublesome little patch of semi desert. Of course at this stage the British Empire was starting to crumble and with the best will in the world the over-stretched colonial service would have been tested but...
...more Jews come and more. Tensions start to mount. Then 1933 the Jews are under pressure in Europe, most countries including (to my shame) my own are unwilling to accept Jewish refugees in any significant number. Palestine suddenly has a lot of appeal for these desperate people. Britain tries to stop the flood of refugees. Attitudes harden all around. There is a bloody Arab revolt in 1937.
Anyway you can extrapolate further for yourself...
My point is, and the point of this post, nothing to do with trans-Jordan, or Syria or Egypt or the Lebanon. Just stick to Isreal (Samaria, Judea Galilee &c). My point is that THE ZIONISTS HAVE BEEN SYSTEMATICALLY DRIVING THE ARABS OFF THE BEST LAND AND RESOURCES SINCE AT LEAST 1948.
This is undeniable. Even Israel dose not deny it. That is the point of this post.
My simple question is, HOW CAN THIS BE JUSTIFIED?
(funny as I wrote this I couldn't help but see comparisons between the experience of the Palestinian Arabs and the Native American People...hmm...Jewish settlers as sod busters and cowboys, the IDF as the cavalry...hmm, a minor epiphany. Is this why so many anti-muslim sites are in the South and West of the U.S.A? If I was in college I could write a nice paper on this and here I am giving it out for free. Shucks!)
Rory
Rory,
ReplyDeleteThe comparison ocurred to me also but much earlier in your post when you first mentioned the sale of land by Arabs to Jewish immigrants. I was reminded of the sale of Manhattan to the Dutch for a handful of trinkets.
So, to answer your question, there is no one answer, but rather a number of them. But let us start w/ the the 1947 U.N. plan for the partition of Palestine. This was a workable solution to the issue of Palestine. Yes, the Palestinians were against as were the independent Arab states, but no solution is perfect.
The Arab-Israeli War of 1948 ensued. Had the Arabs won, there would be no state of Israel; Jews would have been slaughtered (again); and Jews would have continued their exile.
But the Jews won and 300,000-350,000 Palestinians fled or were driven off their land, and that would not have occurred had Jordan, Egypt, Syria, and Iraq not attacked Israel.
The winners of wars get to write history and impose their will on the losers. This is why Mohamed's arguments about the state of Israel being illegal are B.S. I've told him b/f. Simply put, his argument is: "Well, we Arabs tried to exterminate the Jews and lost and so everything thereafter is illegal."
Once you declare war, the laws of combat and warfare apply, not any rule of law. The Arabs declared war; the Arabs attacked; the Arabs lost; and the Palestinians, who in retrospect made a poor choice, and backed the wrong horse, have been suffering the consequences ever since.
Let us remmebr that in the Six Days War of 1967, Israel conquered Gaza, then under Egyptian control, and w/drew in 2005. Subsequently, Hamas took control and we know what occurred after that, including the factional fighting and slaughter that occurred in 2007; the unabated missile attacks; and the consequent Israeli invasion a year ago.
Just a few more points. Personally, I think Israel should cease building settlements on the West Bank.
Hamas tried to stage a big rally yesterday in Gaza. Gazans stayed away in droves. The leaders of Hamas are not rational people.
It is sometimes difficult to understand history if you judge it from your own personal perspective as opposed to an historical one. I will not give a history of the Jews from Biblical times. I will merely remind everyone that every Jew remembers that nearly 6 million European Jews were systematically slaughtered by Adolph Hilter, his allies, and collaberators. 90% of the Jewish population of Poland (3 million killed);Germany and Austria (210,000 killed) and the Baltic Countries (228,00 killed.) By way of example but not limitation.
Rory, ianasmuch as you are about my age, I assume your parents are about the age of mine. This occurred in our parents' lifetime.
You know what we Jews say: "Never Again."
So, however fraught w/ macabre irony The Israeli inasion of Gaza may seem, just rememeber that everyone in Israel and Jews everywhere remember those 6 million victims. So when Hamas refuses to amend its charter which is predicated upon the destruction of Israel or when that jackanapes Amadinejad says: "Israel should be wiped from the map,"
Israelis listen.
They and the two of us know the price of indifference.
Rory, the current population of the Republic of Ireland is approximately 4.5 million. Th epopulation of Northen Ireland is approximately 1.76 million. Together, the poipulation of the island is 6.26 million.
This should give you an idea of the numbers.
This is not to say that all Israelis approved of supported the invasion of Gaza, but however you may disapprove, you can understand Israel's motives.
If there is not a regime change in Iran, for which we should fervently pray, you may expect that sooner or later, Israel will proactively attempt to take out Iran's nuclear program. This Irabnian regime will never abandon it willingly.
We would all do well to remember Hosea 8:7, Mohamed in particular.
Regards,
TLGK
TLGK,
ReplyDeleteI did not know you were Jewish. It explains your anger.
I am an citizen of Poblacht na hÉireann (the Irish Republic) and we know all about disputed territories so-called terrorism and border disputes. We have plenty of destroyed families, 'disappeared' people and ruined lives. Wars that stirred up sectarian hatred, we've had our belly full.
But I was born in London where I lived as a baby for eighteen months. My father is Irish born and reared, my mother is English (Catholic) now an Irish citizen and resident since 1968. This gives me a different perspective to many of my fellow countrymen many of who have xenophobic and sectarian attitudes based on centuries old conflict between Ireland and England.
This is perhaps why I am an Internationalist Socialist.
I try to be careful not to use the term Jew or even Israeli where Zionist is more appropriate. I do not generalize about Religion or Nationality.
One thing that enrages me is to be accused of being an anti-Semite if I question Israeli policy or action. I recognize and empathize with the many centuries of Jewish suffering and as a European am ashamed of the holocaust, my country was complicit by it's inaction, it's silence and failure to take in Jewish refugees.
I avoid mixing religion or race or gender with politics if at all possible. I am a secular catholic but it would be more accurate to describe me as a manic-agnostic. I leave the religion to those, like Mahomed who believe and study it.
I think we have had a good debate and should call it quits for now. No one ever surrenders in these internet debates (no one I've ever come across anyway), but I have learned something and hopefully you have too. Otherwise we are wasting time.
Regards,
Rory
Rory,
ReplyDeleteSorry to hear about your condition. A significant portion of my practice consists of trying to obtain government disability benefits for clients, some of whom also suffer from being bipolar.
I will leave the issue of Israel alone and only add one item on the issue of Gaza. On the way to work today on the radio, I heard that the Egyptian government had blocked a relief convoy for Gaza currently in the Jordanian port of Aqaba.
Meanwhile, you stated "I avoid mixing religion or race or gender with politics if at all possible." I agree and point out that for that reason alone you should be very circumspect about Mohamed who entire credo, political and otherwise, begins and ends w/ Islam.
I refuse to judge all memebers of a group by by the actions of a minority. Nevertheless, I am reaching the conclusion that there is a fundamental flaw in Islam. Recall that Muslim means "he who submits." This ethos discourages a certain type of self examination and intellectual inquiry in general which is responsible for the stagnation of education in many Muslim countries. Don't take my word for this. Read the first 200 pp of "A Path Out of the Desert" by Kenneth M. Pollack, although I suggest you do not attempt this if you are depressed b/c this part of the book is profoundly depressing.
Meanwhile, I wonder if Islam is not undergoing a kind of teenage agnst. The religion is approximately 1,400 years old. When Christianity was about the same age, it experienced the Reformation and the Inquisition.
Nevertheless, there is something fundamentally perverse about terrorism and suicide bombing. I am not qualified to comment of the Catholic-Protestant conflict in Ireland except to say that it seems to me the religious aspect was almost coincidental and the conflict was and remains primarily political.
Muslims seem to be the only people who practice suicide bombing. Some of these acts are political and although may are sectarian. (See Iraq and the miost recent suicide bombing in Pakistan.)
Meanwhile, al Qaeda, one of the most radical of all organizations, wants to return the world to the 7th century.
Mohamed remains reluctant to address the hard issues such as: Why do only Muslims practice suicide bombing? Why is the majority of violence committed by Muslims against other Muslims? And of course, What about those of us like you and me, who are secular humanists, who do not wish to live in the 7th century?
Regards,
TLGK
TLGK,
ReplyDeleteI wiil be brief, and hopefully what I say will please you, sadly it may not please Mahomed, you wrote,
"On the way to work today on the radio, I heard that the Egyptian government had blocked a relief convoy for Gaza currently in the Jordanian port of Aqaba."
Personally I think the Palestinian people are being used as something of a political football by both Israel and some, at least of neighboring the Arab countries.
Rory
Rory,
ReplyDeleteUnfortunately, "some at least of the neighboring Arab countries" is not the half of it. I think it would be more accurate to say "most Arab countries plus Iran which supportds Hamas with money, arms, and training for its militants."
TLGK
You could be right Loop,
ReplyDeletealthough I try to keep abreast of Mid-East politics it is not my chosen specialized subject,
Rory
rory,
ReplyDeleteAs has been said, there was NEVER a nation of Palestine. Nevertheless, there are about 4 million arabs who claim to be "Palestinians."
As was mentioned, about 350,000 arabs were driven off land that became Israel. Those people have ties to the disputed land. However, a bizarre exception for counting refugees was created for the people who decided to manufacture a state out of whole cloth.
It's all about the children. Amazingly, a child born in refugee camps to "Palestinian" parents AFTER 1948 is classified as a "Palestinian."
Imagine a pregnant woman sneaking over the US border from Mexico who delivers a child on US soil. That child is a US Citizen. Period. The child has Mexican parents who are Mexican citizens and the child may well be described as Mexican-American. But there is no doubt about the child's US citizenship.
However, when it comes to "Palestinians" -- there is no similar arrangement in Jordan or Lebanon or Syria or Egypt.
Why? Several reasons. But the leading reason is probably the Right of Return.
The people who claim to be citzens of a nation that never existed what the Right to Return to Israel as CITIZENS with full voting rights.
As I said, there are about 4 million "Palestinians", or enough to soon overwhelm the democracy with Islamic voters who will, as soon as possible, convert Israel into another muslim state that would quickly descend to the economic level of the Gaza Strip.
No other refugees have received the same UN support for counting their numbers.
By the way, as a graduate of an engineering school, I can tell you about muslim engineers -- if they stay in the US they might engage in some amount of engineering. If they return to the middle east, they will not.
Have you noticed there are no technical industries in muslim countries? In short, science and technology are an affront to Islam. Since there is no higher authority than Islam in the life of a muslim, the science and technology has to go.
Muslims are incapable of managing their oil industry. Were it not for western experts, the oil industry of the middle east would collapse.
It's good that muslims are incompetent at almost everything. However, they have shown a knack for converting something good -- commercial jetliners -- into something bad -- flying fuel bombs.
Based on my experience with muslim engineers, it is inconceivable that they alone can build a nuclear weapon in Iran. Of course help is available and no doubt Dr. Khan of Pakistan (schooled in London, by the way) is contributing. North Korea may also have a role. Fortunately, North Korea's bomb was a wet firecracker. But, who knows, one day they might succeed.
The there is the issue of launching a missile carrying a nuclear warhead. Frankly, the Iranians would be extremely lucky to successfully launch even ONE. Then, after lift-off, it has to go where the Iranians hope it will go. That's a long shot.
Frankly, I would worry more that the missiles are red herrings and the bomb itself is coming across Syria or going into Lebanon in parts, moved by motor vehicle, then sent over the border in the usual truck-bomb style of Hezbollah. Or carried in a small plane flown by some modern day Kamikazi.
Rory,
ReplyDeleteExamine the evidence. Listen to the message and not the messenger. no_slappz is > 1/2 right. World wide there are > 10.5 million Palestinians, the majority of whom live in Gaza and the West Bank (3.76 million); Jordan (2.7 million); and Israel (1.3 million +). Interestingly, the fourth largest population of Plaesinians may be in Chile although Syria is close, both having populations of between 4-500,000.
no_slappz has a profound disdain for Muslims as faith but the essence of his attitude is not actually Muslims per se but of Wahhabism or as some scholars have labeled it Salafism.
Abd al-Wahhab was an 18th century scholar from what is today Saudi Arabia. He advocated a process of purifying Islam (based on his own views and understanding of Islam) from innovation. He condemned those who seek to innovate Islam as Kafirs or Infidels, who should be purged (read killed).
Salafism received a huge boost when Saudi Arabia became rich from petro dollars. The effect of Salafism or Wahhabism has been profoundly negative on Arab and Muslim culture. Think about the cultural effect of discouraging innovation. Whereas for a period after the rise of Islam, Muslims were scientically progressive (see innovations in Algebra) since the rise of Salafism/Wahhabism the sciences have stagnated. In addition, North African and Mid Eastern Muslims counties are home to some of the least productive populations in the world. Why is it, do you think, that European nations have not financed factories there, as opposed to Asia and South America. Transportation costs would be a fraction of what they are, but workers in Asia and SA are much more productive.
Aside: reb has been sounding warnings about Wahhabism since he went on line and should be given credit for this.
In the United Sates there are a small number of Christians, very conservative Southern Baptists among them, who believe that the Bible is the revealed word of God and that anything contrary to it is "wrong."
This philosophy is at variance w/ evidence based reality and so is Salafism/Wahhabism.
It is the Salafists like Osama bin Laden who wish to reinstate the Caliphate and return the world to the 7th century.
In your current post, you voice your concerns and decry the attempt to legislate Medeivalism in Ireland. Think of Salafism/Wahhabism in those terms and you will understand the concerns of people like reb and me and the contempt of people like no_slappz.
Regards,
The Loop Garoo Kid
TLGK,
ReplyDeleteThanks for your comment. I did not fully understand it as I have little interest in the various Islamic sects (or Christian ones for that matter).
My most recent post has presented the various commenters an opportunity to discuss the power ANY religion should or should not be allowed in a modern secular republic. So far no one has taken the bait.
My dislike of No_Slappz and Amilleniest is personal. They both consistently use hate filled rhetoric. Also they are obviously unwilling to even listen to any ones opinion but their own.
You may dislike Mahomed, and you are certainly entitled to disagree with him but he makes a lot of effort to write long, well referenced and well structured comments in a language that is foreign to him. I sincerely doubt that either No_Slappz or Allmieniest even bother to read his comments before coming back with the same old same old sectarian bullshit.
I have lived in three western European countries, two of which (Germany and the UK) have significant
Muslim populations yet very few people here have the fear of an Islamic take over or the imposition sharia law that these two clowns are so in dread of. Personally I think the idea is utterly ridiculous and is just being used as an excuse to propagate sectarian and racial hatred.
I am not sure why Mahomed has been so quiet the last number of days, he may have been trying to e-mail me, but unfortunately my public e-mail address (the one I use on the blogosphere has been down for the last few days).
Regards,
Rory
TLGK,
ReplyDeleteI re-read your comment after waking up a bit thanks to my morning coffee. I commented on my new post that i have a fair regard for Reb as a blogger and as a man of principal who is willing to listen to other opinions. The other two have done nothing to earn this regard.
I think their is a lot of truth in what you wrote about the stagnation of Islamic culture in the middle east (I had put it down to laziness due to oil wealth), but Mahomed is far better qualified than me to respond. I hope he does.
Rory
Rory,
ReplyDeleteRegrettably, your thought about Islamic stagnation being related to oil is incorrect b/c the founder of Salafism was b. in 1703 and d. 1792 well b/f petroleum was in use much less discovered in the mid east.
Other than that, I will only make two comments. Do not sell yourself short. Although you may not know about a particular subject, you ared intelligent enough to learn and this especially true regarding subjects such as history, which is nt a hard science and is not technical. That said the only caveat is when you read something, factor in whether the author has an agenda, and is so, what is that agenda.
This brings full circle to the subject of Mohamed. This is a person w/ an agenda that he does not share w/ you. Instead, he seeks to seduce you through his "friendship." Remember, particularly b/c you seem to be a secular humanist, that Mohamed identifies himself first and foremost by his religion. I do not know you well enough to comment on how you identify yourself except that I know you do think of yourself as Catholic first and foremost just as I do not think of myself as a Jew first and foremost.
Mohamed's agenda is his religion. I do not argue or interrelate w/ him anymore b/c I find it impractacl if not impossible to do so. He is very selective about history and facts. He ignores or denies that which does not support his agenda.
The discussion that Mohamed will never have is the one regarding suicide bombers. Not all Muslims are sicide bombers but all suicide bombers are Muslims. Every day of the week some Muslim in Iraq, Pakistan, Afghanistan or elsewhere. The victims are almost always other Muslims.
If I were Mohamed, I would use my blog as a forum to declare as loudly as I could: "This is wrong. This is an abomination. This is anti Muslim."
I am not holding my breath.
So, Rory, praemonitus, praemunitus.
TLGK
Rory,
ReplyDeleteI'm sorry for this lateness. I told you about the story competition, it actually ended in 31th Dec, but I'm busy too in my graphic design studies, they ask for time-consuming homeworks :)
I have read the comments since they were published, but plus my busy schedule, I needed to collect references to make my answer worthy of reading.
I read that TLGK need not to discuss with me anymore. However, I answered some of his points. If he's capable of answering me, I'll listen to him. Argument with him will be different, I didn't argue with a Jew before.
Now, my comments..
've printed all the comments on this post and highlighted some parts that I'd like to comment on..
ReplyDeleteYou talked about the double-standard policy that America and Europe apply towards international cases. When their intersts are involved, then they will interfer the way that achieve their good whatever any other factor.
Their intersets required their interfere to stop killing Muslims in Bosnia, they have to prevent any increasing power of anybody that would challange them. But their political and economical intersts requires their silence, and even the support, when they witness their Israeli allies killing Palestinians. As you said, Rory, they must have a powerfull nuclear ally to stop any increasing power of anybody in the Middle East that would challanege them in the future. Americans supported Israel in its war against Egypt and Syria 1973, but things have changed now. Americans now need an Arab Muslim friend in the area, so they befriend Egypt. They supported Iraq in its war against Kuwait on 1991, but later they invaded it on 2003.
Yes, It's all about policy, not human rights.
About how Jews suffered along history. Yes, it's true. They suffered on the hands of Romans, Babylonians, and Pharaohs too. It's mentioned in Qur'an in various places;
ReplyDelete"Children of Israel! call to mind the (special) favour which I bestowed upon you, and that I preferred you to all other (for My Message). * ... * And remember, We delivered you from the people of Pharaoh: They set you hard tasks and punishments, slaughtered your sons and let your women-folk live; therein was a tremendous trial from your Lord. * And remember We divided the sea for you and saved you and drowned Pharaoh's people within your very sight. " 2nd Chapter: Verses 47-50
"So go ye both to him, and say, 'Verily we are apostles sent by thy Lord: Send forth, therefore, the Children of Israel with us, and afflict them not: with a Sign, indeed, have we come from thy Lord! and peace to all who follow guidance! " 20: 47
They suffered even after that on the hands of Nazis. But all this sufferance along history didn't generate a soul that refuse oppression against anybody, and refuse to witness pains caused to anyone. But instead they generate a selfish soul that would make anything to obtain the land where their ancestors lived thousands of years ago, even if it would cause the sufferance to the people already living on it.
The sirens sound in Yom Shoah every year in all Israel, and everyone freezes in his place to remind Jews of what was committed against races in Europe. I wonder how Jews think in these two minutes silence. Do they remember the thousands of Palestinians that they killed on their ow lands, inside their own homes? Do they remember the Arab blood that they spilled on this land? Do they remember all the sufferance they caused to Millions of Palestinians since more than 70 years ago? Do they remember how they came from every spot of the world to force the people existing on this land to immigrate to every spot of the world?!!
Now, about Arab-Israeli conflict there is an important question that must be discussed if we want to understand its nature..
ReplyDeleteIf Hamas (Or Palestinian resistance in general) stopped attacking Israelis, would Israelis stop attacking and expropriating the properties of Palestinians?
Studying the history we can count tens of violent, terroristic acts and bombings committed against Arabs inside Palestine by Zionist and Jewish terroristic groups. They started since the 30's of the last century, and even earlier. I stated some of these attacks in my post, "History vs Claims" Feb 28, 2009. If we just thought about one thing; WHO STARTED IT?
Yes, before any gun or even a knife was pulled by an Arab against any of the new comers, Zionist Jews killed tens of Palestinians. They targeted them in markets, buses, hotels and even police stations. Maybe they were aiming at forcing Arabs to immigrate to get away from the terrorists and leave the land for the new comers, but all the same Zionists were killing Arabs anyway. ZIONISTS STARTED THE TERRORISM BEFORE ANY RETALIATION FROM THE ARABS.
On the other hand, if we looked on the same fact from the other side, we'll immediately find the answer of my question. It won't make a difference if Palestinians stopped resisting or made a peace with Israelis. Why?
It's Zionists who STARTED killing Arabs before any resistance was expressed by Palestinian Arabs. The first war held by Arab countries against Israel was in 1948, after the declaration of the new state. And the establishment of Hamas resistance group was in 1987 after an Israeli truck driver attacked a car carrying Arabs forcing 4 to death, combined with other incidents. But the first Zionist terrorist attack against Arabs was at least in 1938! It's, 10 years before the first war, and 49 years before the establishing of the main Palestinian resistance group.
In other words, when Israelis started KILLING Palestinians BEFORE ANY ACT BY ARABS, then it's not expected to see Israelis NOT KILLING Palestinians AFTER ARAB RETALIATION. When they killed the peaceful, what would prevent them from killing the one who resist their terrorism and occupation?
Another thing, Israeli policy is built on displacing of Arabs by Jews on Palestine and occupying Palestinian lands as said by Ariel Sharon; "Everybody has to move, run and grab as many (Judean) hilltops as they can to enlarge the (Jewish) settlements because everything we take now will stay ours... Everything we don't grab will go to them.". Also, Israel is considered a "state" that its nationality is given according to religion, Judaism not the actual residence on this land, as said in the declaration of "independence" on 14 May 1947.. "JEWS from other parts of the world, continued to migrate to Israel, undaunted by difficulties, restrictions and dangers, ..". We can figure then that it's a fictional dream to hope that Israelis would release a hand of peace to the non-Jews who want to share them the same holy land.
It's not a coincidence to find out that most of the Israeli PM and ministers are involved in massacres committed against Palestinians. Most of them were leaders or members in terrorist groups like Irgun and Lehi.
ReplyDeleteMenachem Begin, the founder of Irgun Zionist terrorist group that committed many massacres like Deir Yassin, David Hotel bombing. He's the 6th Israeli prime minister.
Yitzhak Shamir, a former leader of Lehi Zionist terrorist group that committed bombings of Arab and British camps in 1947, and Deir Yassin massacre. He's the 7th PM.
Ariel Sharon, an active member in the Haganah that secretly supported its separated wing, Irgun in its terrorist attacks against Arabs. He's the 11th Israeli PM.
Tzipi Livni, a former member in Mossasd, and executed various killings of Palestinian personalities, and undercovered as a maid to assassinate an Iraqi atom scientist by poison. She's a former Foreign Affairs minister, and the powerful leader of opposition party.
It's a thing that must make us question all Israeli claims of peace. If most of their politicians, who pretend to extend a hand of peace, are former terrorists, killers and assassinates, then how would we expect that they may shake the hand with those whom they killed their fathers and brothers! Just imagine America accepting peace promises from Bin Laden who became PM on 2015! Funny, isn't it?
>
You mentioned that you enrage when you are accused of antisemitism just because you denounce Israeli policy. It's a wired thing. The most countries that claim being democratic that would allow reviling and denying anything, even God, will reveal the other face when Israel is touched. Ragaa Garaudy, the French writer, authored the book, "The Founding Myths of Modern Israel" and a part of it was a Holocaust denial. A French court banned any further publication for him, as a result no publisher in France accepted to work with him, in addition he was fined 24,000 French Francs. He was accused of antisemitism. This is happening in the so called, "City of Light".
The funny thing, is that I was accused on my blog of antisemitism, I don't remember why, but I wonder how I would be antisemitism, when I'm a semitic as an Arab who descend from Shem!
Rory,
ReplyDeleteA last important quote I'd like to add to your important quotes.
It's recorded that David Ben-Gurion said to Goldman;
"I don't understand your optimism. Why should the Arabs make peace? If I was an Arab leader I would never make terms with Israel. That is natural: we have taken their country. Sure, God promised it to us, but what does that matter to them? Our God is not theirs. We come from Israel, it's true, but two thousand years ago, and what is that to them? There has been anti-Semitism the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They only see one thing: we have come here and stolen their country. Why should they accept that? They may perhaps forget in one or two generations' time, but for the moment there is no chance."
Mahomed,
ReplyDeleteThanks for your informative comments, I was worried that you were somehow offended by this discussion and had decided not to visit Blog-of-Blogs anymore. I hope your studies are going well.
Hopefully some of the apologists for Zionism will take time to read and think about your remarks.
Rory
Rory,
ReplyDeleteRational talk don't offend me, even if you'll not be on my side. What offends me is the reviles, intended insult, and the preconceived ideas that some have and aren't ready to change it, and the refusal to listen to evidences.
I was patient with Snake Hunters for long time, but I find out that he isn't ready to make a civilized and evidence-based talk. All what he do is accusing Muslims and Islam of false things, when I provide my evidences that refute his claims, he just ignore them, and change the subject.
I may excuse his ignorance. But I don't excuse his refusal to gain knowledge. Every time he says something about Qur'an or quotes a part of a verse out of context, I invite him to read the full Qur'an or at least the full verse not just selective parts of it, he mock me. He and his friends are like a bunch of men who stands on the edge of a river and start arguing, "Its water is hot", "No, it's cold.", "No, no it's warm." .. If they just put their hands inside it, they would solve the conflict.
Well, it was a fine, sensible discussion today
ReplyDeletebetween Rory, Loop Garoo & Sir No Slappz, and
I compliment you three gentlemen. Good stuff!
Then, it became confusing; let's see:
First there were Israeli, approximately 1200 A.D. -- Then Christ -- then Muhammad (PBUH) about 600 A.D. All dates approximate)...
Is this correct?
Now, Mohamed Fadly enters, tells us this wild tale in 2nd Chapter, Verse 47-50 where "WE delivered you (Israeli) from the people of the Pharaoh, and WE divided the sea for you!!! Wowee! Really?
Please Mohamed Fadly, tell us how Muslims accomplished this BEFORE there was a Muhammad,
BEFORE there was a Single Muslim, and certainly
before there was a Holy Qur'an.
I'm nearly certain that Sir No_Slappz, Loop Garoo, and poor confused old reb, would appreciate your answer on this one. The Talking
Camels, Talking Trees, and the Moon-Split, then somehow that old pock-marked Moon magically reunited during Muhammad's lifetime, was another Fairy Tale that needs more detail,
but this one is "frosting on your cake." - reb
Reb,
ReplyDelete"WE delivered you (Israeli) from the people of the Pharaoh, and WE divided the sea for you!!!
Mohamed might clarify, but I imagine that this is God talking using the royal we.
After all, Christians, Muslims and Jews all share the same immortal God.
Rory
Rory, Thank you for your input.
ReplyDeleteSince it was Mohamed's Comment, I believe it was Mohamed speaking for WE; not the Creator. God never speaks of Himself as "We", almost never speaks directly to His Creation, but usually Through His Prophets - Exception in the Commandments: "I am the Lord thy God"
I'll ask Sir Amillennialist (notice double LL & NN)- He's the scholar that spent his adult life on Middle East Studies, with the Bible and The Holy Qur'an, and knows a bit more than either of us. Combined, you and I are rank amatuers. - reb
We shall wait and see whet the experts say Reb,
ReplyDeleteRory
Mohamed,
ReplyDeleteI am not going argue w/ you b/c you simply do not inhabit any evidence based reality w/ which I am familiar.
W/ respect to your interpretation of history, it is a cross between a fairy tale and the southern product of a north walking horse.
TLGK
Well, It's back to name-calling, instead of answering my questions that Fadly Offered Up On
ReplyDeleteJanuary 7th...see his bold print, PLEASE!
Muslims didn't "part the sea" Or "save" the Israeli from "Pharoah's people"...It is recorded, the Israeli General MOSES Did It!
It was many centuries LATER that "Islam & Allah" was INVENTED by the False Prophet Muhammad...in the 7th Century! - reb
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
Furthermore Reb,
ReplyDeleteHe was wrong on several basic facts about me.
I am definitely not an athiest.
I am definitely not an anti-semite.
I don't drink (not for quite a while).
I presume your 'name calling comment' referred to him since all he did throughout his comment was call me names.
There was nothing in his comment worthy of a response, the fact that the comment was 100% anonymous reinforced this.
Rory
More Holy Qur'an...
ReplyDelete"It is not for any prophet to have captives until he has made slaughter in the land..."
Qur'an 8:67
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
The full verse from The Authorised English Translation of The Quran
ReplyDelete[8:67] No prophet shall acquire captives, unless he participates in the fighting. You people are seeking the materials of this world, while GOD advocates the Hereafter. GOD is Almighty, Most Wise.
Authorized By Whom, Rory?
ReplyDelete"It is not for any prophet to have captives until he has made slaughter in the land. Ye desire the lure of this world, and Allah desireth (for you) the Hereafter, and Allah is Mighty, Wise." - Quran 8:67
_ _ _
Take your pick, Rory. Or, go directly to your trusted mentor, Mohamed Fadly! - reb
______________________________________________
To all and sundry,
ReplyDeleteIf you want to quote scripture go ahead although I find that type of argument an exercise in futility.
I think it more fruitful to argue the evidence, in this case, the history.
Mohamed's assertations are completely unsupported. He makes facts up out of whole cloth. He never addresses anything that is contrary to his position.
Ask him about 1948, he states the Jews started killing the Arabd first. No citation, just the word according to Mohamed.
Ask him about Hamas, the elected government of Gaza, shooting hundreds of missiles in Israel, he will tell, as he told me once, that the brave Hamas firers of missiles against Israeli civilians (Women! Children! Senior ciizens!) he will describe what most of us consider, at the very least as ill considered, as the brave act of "resistors."
When Israel responded w/ overpowering force which resulted in a number of things including, a dramatic worsening of the already grim plight of the average Gazan and the almost complete cessation of missiles being fired into Israel from Gaza, Mohamed whines about state sponsored terrorism.
Give it up Mohamed.
Why don't you try to fix a few problems in Egypt? There are enough of them.
TLGK
Reb,
ReplyDeleteMy version makes sense, you don't get the spoils of victory if you don't take part in the war. The second part, which you omitted suggests it is an analogy: The prophet will get the reward for his struggles on earth in the hereafter.
This is an uneducated layman's interpretation.
Your version just sounds pointless and nasty.
Rory
TGLK,
ReplyDeleteCan you explain why Israel won't allow sufficient quantities of food, medicine and construction materials into the Gaza Strip?
Rory
Rory - My "version" is an accurate translation,
ReplyDeleteand I agree, it is "pointless & nasty"...it's directy from the 1400 yr old Holy Qur'an. -
Since you choose to ignore Loop's History Lessons, and you lean toward the "spoils of war", or 21 yr old Fadly's MB "taquiyya explanation"...I'm wasting my value-time too.
Since you have access to the local priest, and you are usually "too busy", just ask your local parish to supply a better translation.
Uneducated laymen should never attempt to interpret anything deeper than a mud-puddle.
Enjoy the music...and your dogs. They love you.
Stop arguing about something you will never understand. Leave the mysteries to old fools like me...I enjoy controversy! - reb
_ _ _
Nothing More Here; I'll check my Links! reb
ReplyDeleteRory,
ReplyDelete"Anonymous" was me, of course.
As for name-calling, I did not call you a "useless idiot" (still reading carefully, I see). I used the term "Useful Idiot Dhimmi."
A "Useful Idiot" is someone who allows himself to be used to advance his own demise by those who intend him harm.
A "dhimmi" is a Jew or Christian (and sometimes Hindu or Zoroastrian) under the "protection" of Muslims, as in: "Give us your money, your honor, and your women and little girls, and we'll protect you . . . from us."
You're committing treason against humanity by obfuscating for jihad.
I do not intend to offend you; I'm merely trying to wake you up, prick your conscience, stir your pride.
If you are a Catholic, act like one! Tell the truth. Defend what is good in this world. Stop aiding those who believe it honors God to enslave or slaughter all who refuse conversion to their religion.
As to Qur'an 8:67, Tafsir Ibn Kathir notes regarding the verse that permission to take ransom for prisoners of war (and other spoils) was granted here.
Here are four translations (Pickthall, Yusuf Ali, Hilali-Khan, and Shakir) considered "orthodox" by Yet Another Qur'an Browser, none of which makes jihad a peaceful inner struggle:
008:067
"It is not for any prophet to have captives until he hath made slaughter in the land. Ye desire the lure of this world and Allah desireth (for you) the Hereafter, and Allah is Mighty, Wise."
"It is not fitting for a prophet that he should have prisoners of war until he hath thoroughly subdued the land. Ye look for the temporal goods of this world; but God looketh to the Hereafter: And God is Exalted in might, Wise."
"It is not for a Prophet that he should have prisoners of war (and free them with ransom) until he had made a great slaughter (among his enemies) in the land. You desire the good of this world (i.e. the money of ransom for freeing the captives), but Allah desires (for you) the Hereafter. And Allah is All-Mighty, All-Wise."
"It is not fit for a prophet that he should take captives unless he has fought and triumphed in the land; you desire the frail goods of this world, while Allah desires (for you) the hereafter; and Allah is Mighty, Wise."
Nope, no religion of peace here. Just a religion of offensive warfare, terror, slaughter, and ransom.
Amillennialist
Reb,
ReplyDeleteI still think reading the whole verse that it is a methaphor. 'Captives' are the spoils of victory, 'triumphed in the land', is winning souls for God.
If you read it any other way, the second verse is meaningless.
While my local priest is well traveled and well educated, he spent his best years in sub-Saharan Africa, I doubt if he is an expert on Arabic or the Quran.
Rory
Amillennialist,
ReplyDeleteThat last comment was supposed to be addressed to you, for some reason, I read Reb, but I knew that Reb would not have used the tone of your previous comment.
Rory
Rory,
ReplyDeleteThe blockade is not a subject abbout which I have read much but my take on it is this: The Gazans elected Hamas as their government. This was an understandable reaction to the rampant corruption of Fatah.
At the time Hamas, funded by Iran and others, operated schools, clinics, free lunch programs, etc. so the average Gazan thought "as compared with those corrupt A holes from Fatah, these guys are great, let's vote for them."
As we have all experienced or witnessed, it is one thing to run schools for the poor and another thing to run a government.
I need not review what happened with the bloody fighting in which Hamas ejected Fatah from Gaza; the missiles; or the subsequent invasion.
It seems to me that the Israeli blackade has a political purpose, reinforcing to the Gazans the idea that "electing Hamas was really not such a good idea b/c we cannot deal w/ a government hat is pledged to our nation's destruction."
I say this by way of explanation, not justification. The blockade is exacerbating what is already a grave humanitarian crisis. The crisis will grow worse b/c now Egypt is beginning a campaign to stop smuggling through tunnels from Egypt to Gaza. Although a minor motive may be to preserve the status quo w/ Israel, the real motive is that Egypt does not wish Hamas, a militant Islamic group to succeed as Egypt has been supressing Islamic groups, like the Muslim Brotherhood, for decades. Although Egypt may not be much of a democracy, the ruling powers and western nations do not wish to see it become an Arab version of Iran.
Ask Mohamed what he wants for his country. I suspect strongly if he is honest (which he is not) he would say he would love Egypt to beccome a Muslim theocracy governed by Sharia.
TLGK
Snake Hunters,
ReplyDeleteI think you wasn't smart enough to understand that the word; "We .." in the verse that I quoted about the sufferance of Jews in Egypt is said by God, not Muslims.
I guess you didn't read the complete quote. You just followed your usual way of cutting verses and selecting parts out of their context.
I told you before, but I'll tell you again..
Most of the believers in God, believe that there are miracles that can be done on the hands of His Prophets. Jews believe that Prophet Moses did miracles to them by the help of God, Christians believe that Prophet Jesus did miracles, turning clay into doves, etc, Muslims too have their beliefs in miracles that were done on the hands of all the Prophets and Messengers that we believe in. Moses was one of them, he did many miracles by his stick, we believe in them, Maybe Jews too believe in them, you can ask TLGK about his beliefs.
Mohamed,
ReplyDeleteIf I want only one side of the story, I know where to go.
May 7, 1936 to March 1939, the Arab leadership, led by Amin al-Husayni, declared a general strike against the British which rapidly deteriorated into a violent rebellion, known as the Arab Revolt, that lasted three years. The mainstream Jewish defense organization, the Haganah, maintained a policy of self restraint. The smaller Irgun group adopted a policy of retaliation and revenge. Roughly 5,000 Arabs and 400 Jews were killed along w/ 200 Brits, who, b/c they were putting down an Arab revolt against the British Crown, killed most of the Arabs.
I am not saying that Haganah did not support the Brits, Mohamed, but you see how your argument disappates like a fart in a gale when confronted w/ the facts. By the way, who do you think killed the 400 Jews? Not the Brits. Not other Jews. So who does that leave?
You are one conniving MF, Mohamed. "Oh the poor children that were killed when Israel invaded Gaza." Indeed the loss of innocent life is as regrettable as it gets. But you see, my dear prevaricator, you simply refuse to admit the obvious. If the terrorist "resistors" that you so admire had not fired rockets into Israel, those children would be alive.
On December 18, 2008, Hamas unilaterally declared an end to the 6 month cease fire that had existed and intensified its rocket attacks fired toiward Israel. We know what happened after that. Just think, those 400 children would still be alive today, if their government had not committed acts of war against the state of Israel.
You know, Mohamed, you would be a lot more credible if you would declare suicide bombing the overwehlming majority which is commited by Muslims against other Muslims, is an abomination.
reb, as for miracles, I would account it a major one if Mohamed ceased to speak w/ a forked tongue.
TLGK
TLGK,
ReplyDeleteIn fairness, I have often seen Mahomed condemn suicide bombings.
Rory
Rory,
ReplyDeleteGood. Every time I 've asked, he has side stepped the issue. If Jews were walking into crowded places and blowing up themselves and other Jews, I would be involved in a massive PR program to try and explain to all the gentiles that not all practicioners of my religion were fanatic whack jobs.
TLGK
For many, many months I trusted Fadly as a sincere young person that believed in Islam; little by little, I learned bits and pieces of what precisely formed his real agenda.
ReplyDeletea) He was trained for 13 years by the Muslim Brotherhood; and b) when I became aware of the
utter brutality in the Qur'an (which justifies
pedophilia, rape, the slaughter of innocents, the brutal treatment of women, the deceit & trickery to convert the unaware, suicidal killings, stonings of women, bombings in dozens of nations, Muslim killing Muslims in Iraq, Afganistan and Pakistan, etc Mohamed Fadly sez that the revealing quotes are all "out of context". Yeah, sure! This young man calls me a Liar, and lately, he deletes an accurate bit of history that I offered up on his Understanding Islam Weblog. Why, do I prefer BlogOfBlogs? If I attempt accuracy, or Loop Garoo does, you listen, and you answer back. That's dialog worth something. Mohamed deletes Amillennialist, Sir No Slappz, and now
the Snake Hunter. Why? I'll tell you...
"War is Deceit" says the Qur'an, and the Persian "taqiyya" & "Kitman" is 'purposeful deception' allowed by these fanatics, and have been quickly adopted by the Sunni, to make "useful idiots" out of ANYONE that will listen to their well-crafted propaganda.
A "religion of peace" is an Outrageous Lie!
Suicidal bombs are firing off in many nations, not just in Palestine, not a matter of who fired first. That's silly; There will be another bombing tomorrow! Does that make me a
Prophet?
Islam has been at war for 1400 years!
The MB training that Mohamed has received has served him well; his English has improved dramatically in the time I've known him; he's a fine apologist for the Kill-culture of Islam.
Read the Qur'an he says, and I do! But not the quotes Mohamed would like me to read!
>
Ask Mohamed why we never see another Muslim on his Blog, just we "useful idiots"? It's true,
I no longer trust 'Moderate Muslims'...They must all speak with forked tongues. - reb
2:15 AM Eastern - Goodnite!
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Rory,
ReplyDeleteB/f I climb all over you, I request you to elaborate on the the statement: "As for the astonishingly brutal attack on the Gaza strip, well that was on the same magnitude as 9/11."
While you are at it, I request that you explain further: "I think you are either practicing self deception yourself or are sadly deceived if you think mid-east conflicts are religious in nature."
I will preempt by stating some of these conflicts are not solely religious in nature.
As for Turkey, notwithstanding recent remarks by the Turkish prime minister, the two countries have trade between in each other at about 6 billion dollars annually and have enjoyed decades of good terms and cooperation.
Rather than post at the most recent comment, I urge you to consider two items which for which your position regarding Israel and the Palestinians does not account. First, prior to the increase in Palestinian acts of violence against Israel and Israelis, many Palestinians from both Gaza and the West Bank worked in Israel. This was mutually beneficial to both, however, once Israel determined that the security risk was too high, the practice ended. The negative effect was much greater on the Palestinians.
Secondly, in 2003-4, Israel unilaterally w/drew from Gaza. Israel left bwhind intact all of the green house based agricultural industry which some Plaestinians promptly looted thereby destroying whta could have become a vibrant part of the Gazan economy.
I find it discouraging that you, and others on this blog and PP, look at the current events selectively and divorced from their historical context.
Ask yourself this question: Has the plight of Palestinians improved or deteriorated since the the inception of the first intifada?
Now, if you reach the conclusion that violence against Israel and Israelis has not enhanced the political, social, or economic status of Palestinians in the West Bank or Gaza, why then do Palestinians persist in attempting to effect change through violence.
Can we agree on one thing? The invasion of Gaza is proof that the Plaestinians will never achieve miliary success against Israel.
Was firing those missiles by Hamas worth the coist?
TLGK
TLGK,
ReplyDeleteOk, let's see, to begin 9/11 and the Gaza massacre, well in both cases you had four figure numbers of innocent people killed, massive damage to infrastructure and the local economy.
The suffering inflicted in the Gaza attack was insanely out of proportion to the damage done by Hamas's home-made rockets. I find it hard to believe that Israel, with it's world class intelligence agencies, special forces and no-doubt plenty of informers in the Strip could not have neutralized the threat posed by these rockets in a much more surgical fashion. This kind of Biblical slaughter of the innocents is a bit out of place in the 21st century.
To constantly harp on about the fact that the people of Gaza elected Hamas does not impress me. The people of Fermanagh and South Tyrone elected an IRA prisoner to the British parliament in 1981 at the height of the Northern Ireland troubles. The British did not respond by slaughtering multitudes of innocent civilians in these counties.
Your remark about Turkey seems to reinforce my point that Islam, as such is not waging war on the rest of the world as Reb and some other commenters on this blog would have us believe.
As for the destruction of the greenhouses, well we are talking about people who live in chaotic circumstances, brutalized by generations of conflict and with no strong government or police force, so it would be hard to control looters, many may have been inclined to destroy these things as symbols of occupation or maybe to discourage the Israelis to consider returning.
The plight of the Palestinians has been on a steady downward trend ever since 1948. There may be moments of respite, but generally things get steadily worse. I don't know what provoked the intifada but I am certain something must have.
Yes, the Palestinians can never defeat the Israelis, I can only presume they are trying to provoke foreign intervention. Personally, after the recent events in Gaza, if I were a Palestinian, I would abandon all hope of that and focus all my energies on getting myself and my family the hell out of there. Sadly, this is not an easy option physically or emotionally. Even if you can find a country willing to take you in, it amounts to abject surrender.
Rory
Rory,
ReplyDeleteIt would be helpful if I could block and copy but something about this wbsite prevents me from doing that. Let us exammine your first paragraph. It sounds good but:4 figures is right but the max figure I found for Gazan causlities was 1440 (Palestinian Ministry of Health gaza) the minimum was 1166 (IDF. Deaths except fot the hijackers from 9/1 totaled 2,973. They are both 4 figures only 9/11 was between double and triple that of the invasion of Gaza.
Massive damage to local infrastructure? Yes. Damage to th elocal economy? Using Wilkipedia, including the decline of the stck market, 9/11 caused over 2 trillion dollars of loss to the local econy of NYC. That does not take into account all of the ripple effects from the air fleet being grounded and the effect on global markets. How much is 2 trillion dollars? If my calculations are correct, if you took $1.00 bills and laid them end to end at the equator, you could circle the earth 76,058.7 times.
I do not think that type of damage was done to Gaza.
Rory, you may compare proportionate deaths but not suffering. But here is where you are dead wrong. There was no possiblity of "surgical" retaliation. The mobile missiles that were used by Hamas coulkd be fired, and the people who fired them long gone by the missiles landed. The strategy of Hamas was and is to place its weapons cachs and command centers among civilizian populations.
About the election. At the risk of seeming brusque, Rory, wake up and smell the coffee and be impressed. Once Hams was 1. elected and 2. refused to alter its charter that calls foir the destruction of Israel, the situation for Gaza went from bad to hopeless.
Look at it from the Israelis point of view. How can you be a civil neighbor, much less a good one, to a neighbor who wants to blow up your house and kill you and your children?
So some Provo in prison got elected. So what. He was powerless. Hamas was not.
Jesus wept. Read what you wrote about the looters. A vibrant industry, that was available free for nothing was completely destroyed b/c the Palestinians acted lawlessly.
Provoke foreign intervention? It ain't gonna happen. See 1948, 1954, 1967, and 1973. The UN has intervened as no_slappz pointed out, but the cavalry is not coming to the rescue. And you're right. Nobody wants the Palestinians in teh Arab World or Europe. There are a lot in Chile though.
I hate to mention this but the Palestinians always seem to back the wrong horse. When Saddam Hussein invaded Kuwait, the ysided w/ him and did not earn any points amongst their fellow Arabs.
But let us no forget the southern Sudanese; the central Congolese; and the Burmans.
TLGK
Loop - It's not an easy task to move a stone wall to another position; I've tried that.
ReplyDeletereb
____________________________________________
'Palestinians & Gaza' is Mohamed's favorite subject...that he decided to end when Sir Amillennialist proved more knowledgable! Sir Amillennialist's authentic quotes from the Qur'an were all "out of context" of course. How lame is that excuse?
ReplyDeleteOn March 17, 2009 (See S/H Archives), Snake Hunter published two articles on the subjects, "Now They Call Me Infidel" and "Roots of the Gaza War" by Nonie Darwich; read them.
Nonie Dawich is another ex-Muslim lady, with an Egyptian General for a father! Darwich knows Islam, and was schooled in Gaza!
Now, I've just published a Post from another lady doctor from Syria, another authentic source. A Syrian Muslim, and her book details the sadness of how all her female family members suffered daily in that muslim culture, dealing with the grim and oppressive realities women & girls face every day of their lives, living as obedient Muslims!
Mohamed Fadly asked Loop Garoo for "fact-base evidence"...Well, for $24 (incl Shipping) the
whole world has access to Fawa Sultan's book,
"A God That Hates". She was allowed three interviews on al Jazeera TV with a Muslim Cleric! Also, in her third chapter "Finding Hope for The Men Of Islam" may have special meaning for people here that are willing to read a viewpoint contrary to their own.
The Mind...Is A Terrible Thing to Waste On Half-Truths & Partial, Fragmented Evidence, offered up as "truth" by someone trained from childhood by the Muslim Brotherhood!
It is said that ol' Beelzebub Himself is the author of confusion and deception > "War is Deceit", Bukhari, Vol 4, Book 52, Number 269.
reb
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Ya know something else, Rory?
ReplyDeleteIt isn't just Islam-o-phobia any more, when
looni-tune crazies are really trying hard to kill you. Those suicide-bombers with the explosives in their shorts must really want those 72 virgins!
Ponder that one for a while. - reb
It's a security problem when muslims board a
ReplyDeletecommercial flight anywhere in the world. - reb
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TLGK,
ReplyDeleteYou said; "If I want only one side of the story"
Well, actually that's what you always do. When you talk about the life of Jews in Egypt during the era of Pharaohs, you only mentioned the sufferance they faced during the life of Prophet Moses, but you ignored the prosperity they lived in during the rule of the monotheist Pharaoh king, Akhenaten. He even assigned the Jewish Prophet, Joseph, the ministry of finance. In fact, that's the era when Jews came first to Egypt when the Jewish minister in the Egyptian government requested Jews to come to Egypt, and they lived in prosperity in a city just built for them.
"Then when they entered the presence of Joseph, he provided a home for his parents with himself, and said: "Enter ye Egypt (all) in safety if it please Allah."" Quran, Chapter 12: Verse 99
The complete story is found in Qur'an, Chapter "Joseph".
Another Israeli that I don't know follows the same logic of "one side of the story". I read his comment on a video of a Palestinian women beat by Jewish settlers. He was saying something like; "Why you blame them .. Palestinians want to destroy Israel .. You're biased." The same logic of you. One side of the story. He didn't say, "Yes, she shouldn't be beaten."
>
Arab Revolt during 1936-1939! Well, it was an early resistance led by Amin Al-Husainy who knew that sooner or later a new Jewish state will be declared over their lands and their homes. He witnessed the rising Jewish immigration into Palestine. He knew that Palestinians will be taken away from their homes.
The main demands of the Arab Revolt were; stopping the Jewish immigration supported by British occupation, national independence of Palestine, and stopping of land sales to the new Jewish comers. They were very legal demands.
The revolt started by the non-payment of taxes to British occupation in cities, plus the armed resistance in the country. It was a protest against the immigration of European, Russian, South American and North-American Jews into Palestine, however they don't actually belong to this land. It was a protest against the wired Balfour Declaration, 1917 that promised Jews of establishing a state for Jews on Palestinian lands!! If any people just imagined an occupier of his land, promising another scattered people to give him the land he occupies to group itself on it! The Arab Revolt was a normal reaction against the rising immigration of Jews.
You said; "Roughly 5,000 Arabs and 400 Jews were killed along w/ 200 Brits, who, b/c they were putting down an Arab revolt against the British Crown, killed most of the Arabs... By the way, who do you think killed the 400 Jews?"
ReplyDeleteWe have three subjects here..
First, You asked who killed the 400 Jews? Well, answer the question "Who killed the 5,000 Arabs?!!" at first, and I may think about your question.
Second, the 400 Jews were killed NOT on their lands, if we excluded the Arab and Palestinian Jews who lived in harmony along with Palestinians, in other words, they were killed as OCCUPIERS. They didn't came to "live WITH" Palestinians, but they came to "live INSTEAD OF" Palestinians. They had their homes in Europe, America and Russia. They didn't have any homes in Palestine when they came to Palestine. They came to OCCUPY, to live in the homes of Palestinians.
But the 5,000 Palestinians were killed on their lands, inside their own homes. They weren't killed as occupiers. They were killed in massacres. Their blood was spilled on the land where they born and lived the whole of their lives and lives of their grandfathers.
Jews were killed on a foreign land, on a land that they never saw on the whole of their lives. They were killed on a land that they wanted to be theirs, and only theirs.
TLGK, You justify killing Palestinians in Gaza during the Christmas last year because they elected Hamas i.e. the only guilt they did was "Election". Well, those Jews who were killed did a guilt much more than that. They left their homes in Europe, America and Russia, and immigrated into Palestine with only one purpose .. TO TAKE THE HOMES OF PALESTINIANS. They did an action. They moved from their homes in their countries, and traveled into Palestine, no one forced them to leave their homes and immigrate to a country that don't belong to them. They did the guilt and must bear its consequences.
Until now, there is a minimum number of about 350 Palestinian city or village that was evacuated from its Palestinian residents. And now, IN THE SAME PLACE OF THE OLD PALESTINIAN CITIES AND VILLAGES, there are tens of Israeli settlements!!
Modern they are?!! Yes. Well Built? Sure. But they are built on the ruins of the evacuated Palestinian villages. DISPLACING = ISRAEL
Rory, I would be glad if you gave me your perspective about the last two highlighted paragraphs. Do you agree or not?
TLGK, Third, you said ".. who, b/c they were putting down an Arab revolt.."
If we reviewed history, we'll be able to understand that the Zionist attacks were not aiming at the purpose of just putting down an Arab revolt. The main targets of Irgun and Lehi in these attacks were; markets, police stations, trains and buses. So, your claim that it was just against the Arab Revolt has no sense.
Its real target was to terrorize the Arab residents on the land of Palestine, and force them to immigrate from this land. (What a puzzle! The word "immigrate" is used twice to describe what both Jews and Palestinians did. I just used a different preposition .. "to" & "from"! What do this tell you?)
My point is; If it was true that the Zionist bombings (Lehi, Irgun, etc) was JUST to stop the Arab Revolt, it would be only against the Arab rebels. But in fact the Zionist bombings were made against markets and transportations and public places.
Talking about the 418 children victims of the last Israeli attacks against Gaza, you said; "If the terrorist "resistors" .. had not fired rockets into Israel, those children would be alive."
ReplyDeleteI'll try to use the same logic of you. IF SOMEONE HAD NOT DO SOMETHING. A DIFFERENT THING WOULD HAPPEN And we'll see what we'll got..
If Jews agreed in th first Zionist conference, 1897 in Switzerland on the first choice for the future national Jewish homeland, i.e. Argentina instead of Palestine => Millions of Palestinians would be at the moment at their homes living safely and securely, and maybe .. Jews would have been living in their "state" side by side with the Argentines, under the rule of Jews!!
If Balfour didn't make his declaration to Rothschild in 1917, promising to give a land that don't belong to his government to another people that doesn't deserve it => Palestinian resistance wouldn't have break out.
If the Zionist terrorist groups Irgun and Lehi didn't commit the massacre of Deir Yassin in 9 April, 1948, after only 2 weeks of signing a peace treaty between the people of Deir Yassin village and heads of neighbor Zionist settlements, killing more than 250 of children, women, elderly and young men => Many thing would have happen; a) Thousands of armless Arabs would not have leave their homes and travel to neighbor Arab countries seeking security. b) More than 250 of innocent Palestinian children and women would be alive. c)The war of 1948 would not have broke out.
If tens of civil Arab places; markets, trains and buses weren't bombed since the 1930's, and Palestinian women and girls weren't raped by Zionist terrorist groups => The Palestinian resistance would not have group to retaliate and defend their women and children and homes.
If thousands of Jews didn't leave their homes in Europe, Russia and America and immigrated to Palestine aiming at occupying Palestinian homes => The Arab Revolt would not have broke out.
If Zionists did not declare the establishment of their new "state" on Palestinian lands in 14 May, 1948 => a) The war of 1948 would not have broke out. b) About 2.2 Million of Palestinians would not have turned to be refugees in other Arab countries and on their own land.
If Zionists did not decide to do everything to establish their new "state" on the Palestinian lands => The Arab Revolt and Palestinian Resistance and Intefada would not have make any move.
If Zionist Jews of the world did not decide to do everything to have the land ONLY for themselves => Jews would be living now side by side with Muslims and Christians on this land.
TLGK,
The Palestinian resistance isn't just a new born movement, or a result of yesterday's incidents. They are the natural result of more than 60 years of occupation, killing, expropriation of lands, evacuation, cutting of olive trees, bulldozing of homes.
"Oppression Will Never Generates Anything But Resistance by Freemen". That's the rule that I believe in.
Another thing about last Israeli attack against Gaza, 2008-2009. You claimed On December 18, 2008, Hamas unilaterally declared an end to the 6 month cease fire that had existed and intensified its rocket attacks fired toiward Israel.
ReplyDeleteThat's a lie. The 6 month cease fire was systematically broke by Israelis.
a) Not Fulfilling Ceasefire Demands: Israel did NOT end its siege over Gaza which was the main demand in the cease fire signed with Hamas.
b) Attacking The Ceasefire Area: In Nov 4, 2008 i.e. one month before the alleged end of the cease fire by Hamas Israel made an air raid against the stripe killing 6 members of Hamas.
c) Killing Palestinians Inside Ceasefire Area: According to the reports of "International Solidarity Foundation for Human Rights" Israel killed more than 50 Palestinians in Gaza stripe and West Bank during the period of cease fire since Jun 2008.
TLGK, Israelis never respected the ceasefire. Killing and attacking the area of the ceasefire, plus not executing the demands of the ceasefire are all an end of the 6 month ceasefire, early before Hamas made its declaration in Dec 18, 2008. Hamas declared the end of the ceasefire, because there is not a one.
TLGK,
ReplyDeleteYou told me that I would be more credible if I denounced suicide bombings. Wow, you're following my blog for about 2 and half years until now and you didn't hear me once denouncing terrorism!!
Since the very early start of blogging, actually my first written post, I sent a message "For terrorists acting in Islam name" Nov 12, 2005 My English wasn't good enough, but the message was clear.
In Aug 31, 2006 I denounced kidnapping the two American journalists "Steve & Olaf" in Palestine.
AND IN Feb 22, 2007 I ANSWERED YOUR QUESTION 'Do you support terrorism?' .
And in Jul 22, 2007 I asked the question; "Civilians or Soldiers?"
And in 9-11-2007 I wondered "Why an innocent be killed?"
And in 15 Sep, 2008 I explained "Jihad & Peace in the Qur'an"
And in Jul 17, 2009 I published an Important Fatwa About Terrorism
You ignore all of that however you were a participator in commenting in majority of these posts. You would claim that every time you've asked me I side stepped the issue. But it's your own problem. Try to consult a physician. Maybe you forget things after you participate in them.
Finally, you and Rory discussed about the comparison between the economical effects of the day 9-11-2001 attacks against the WTC and the 22 days Israeli attacks against Gaza, 2008.
ReplyDeleteWell, I don't think the comparison should be made like that, i.e. by the numbers. It must be measured according to the effects of the attacks..
The number of economical losses in Gaza is 4 milliard US dollars, less than the NY loss, 2 trillion dollars. Does that make the loss of NY bigger than the loss of Gaza? No.
NY is an open city, no limits against the trade, no basic infrastructure was affected by the attacks, water and electricity stations were safe, except the underground metro station beneath the two towers, there were no sufferance of hunger or unemployment. The point is, NY can get healed quickly.
But Gaza is a sieged stripe. No trade until Israeli approval which actually rarely happens, 20,000 housing units were destroyed (which means that at least 20,000 Palestinian family were turned to be homeless plus the orphans who need care homes), 80% of the economical institutions in Gaza stripe were destroyed (700 institutions were affected: 268 totally destroyed, 432 partially destroyed), the unemployment percentage reached 80% after the war plus a 90% rate of poverty, constructing materials are -until the moment- strict from entering the stripe.
Comparing the economical effects we'll find out at the moment that Gaza suffered more. In NY, how many housing unit was destroyed? What is the percentage of destroyed economical institutions? What is the percentage of unemployment and poverty caused by the 9-11 attacks? Did anyone strict using constructing materials to re-build the attacked buildings?
Answer these questions, make your calculations, and you'll know who suffered.
Rory,
ReplyDeleteI'd like at first to thank you so much for hosting this discussion on your blog. In fact, that's what I can call a civilized talk. Evidence to evidence. Not like what others do, just reviling and insulting without providing actual evidence that can be discussed.
You said; As for the astonishingly brutal attack on the Gaza Strip a year ago, well that was on the same magnitude as 9/11. How peaceful did that make the Jewish religion look?
However all the corrupted parts in the Bible that invite to genocide, killing children and women, enslaving people, besieging countries, burning cities like stated in Numbers Chapter 31:(17,18) and Deuteronomy Chapter 20:(10-17). But I don't think that it's what God really ordered Jews to do. Jews were truly the chosen people as stated in Qur'an, 45th Chapter, 16th verse "We did aforetime grant to the Children of Israel the Book the Power of Command, and Prophethood; We gave them, for Sustenance, things good and pure; and We favoured them above the nations."
But I don't think what they are doing now is making them a favored people. Killing children isn't a thing that makes God loves the killer.
Maybe they believe that God ordered them to do so, but this don't make Jewish religion bad. Rabbis corrupted it.
You don't know what provoked the Intifada, I can tell you..
ReplyDeleteThe Intifada is translated as; "Uprising". The first Intifada started in 1987 when an Israeli settler used his truck to attack a parked car carrying Palestinian workers, killing 4. The next day during the funeral of one of the victims, a little protest demonstration started, and the people started to throw stones on an Israeli militant site. And the Israeli army responded by firing bullets in the air without causing any injuries. This Intifada was called "Intifadat al-Higara" or "Uprising of the Stones" because the main "weapon" used in it was the stones and Molotov cocktails, against the arsenal of the Israeli army. It lasted until 1993. 160 Israeli were killed, 1,087 Palestinians were killed in the streets on the hands of Israeli army, and 75 Palestinian on the hands of Israeli settlers.
Actually, what fired up the 1st Intifada isn't just this attack by this Israeli settler. The declaration of Israeli "state" in 1948 over Palestinian lands, the continuous persecution against Palestinians practiced by Israelis, the continuous expanding of occupied Palestinian lands, the deteriorating economical state among Palestinians because of the Israeli discrimination policy (a Palestinian worker gets half the wage of an Israeli worker, plus discounting 20% of the wage of the Palestinian), occupying Jerusalem in 1967 by Israel and declaring it as "the eternal capital for Israel", controlling the entrances to the mosque of Al -Aqsa by Israelis, raising the number of settlements on the occupied lands, using the underground water resources for the sake of settlements. These all were enough reasons for an explosion. Killing the 4 Palestinians by the Israeli truck was just "The straw that broke the camel's back".
The second Intifada was provoked in 2000 when Ariel Sharon, Israeli Prime Minister, entered Al-Aqsa mosque guarded by Israeli soldiers. A thing that provoked the feelings of Palestinian Muslims. This Intifada continues until now, its victims among Israelis are about 1,000, and among Palestinians are about 5,000. One of the famous victims of this Intifada is Muhammad al-Dorra, the 12 years old Palestinian boy who was hunted by Israeli shooters. All Israeli arsenal was used in this Intifada including; F16, Mirkava tanks, Apache and heavy guns.
Snake Hunters,
ReplyDeleteOn your JANUARY 17, 2010 12:24 PM's comment .. you can watch this video..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sQ3owg0jcxo
Mohamad,
ReplyDeleteYou wrote:
TLGK, You justify killing Palestinians in Gaza during the Christmas last year because they elected Hamas i.e. the only guilt they did was "Election". Well, those Jews who were killed did a guilt much more than that. They left their homes in Europe, America and Russia, and immigrated into Palestine with only one purpose .. TO TAKE THE HOMES OF PALESTINIANS. They did an action. They moved from their homes in their countries, and traveled into Palestine, no one forced them to leave their homes and immigrate to a country that don't belong to them. They did the guilt and must bear its consequences.
Until now, there is a minimum number of about 350 Palestinian city or village that was evacuated from its Palestinian residents. And now, IN THE SAME PLACE OF THE OLD PALESTINIAN CITIES AND VILLAGES, there are tens of Israeli settlements!!
Modern they are?!! Yes. Well Built? Sure. But they are built on the ruins of the evacuated Palestinian villages. DISPLACING = ISRAEL
Rory, I would be glad if you gave me your perspective about the last two highlighted paragraphs. Do you agree or not?
I tend to agree with everything you wrote Mohamed, I do not see how anyone can expect the Palestinians (especially in the Gaza Strip) to elect a government that agrees with the state of Israel. I would maintain that Israel wants to drive the Arabs out of the West Bank and Gaza Strip. Sadly, this is a battle to the death.
Rory